Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent) | Oireachtas source

I agree with Senator McDowell. The idea of only having a layperson as chair when the chairperson is absent is ridiculous. What the Senator is saying is that legal scholarship, knowledge and rigour are to just sit there and be silent because there can only ever be a layperson in the chair. I cannot believe what I am hearing.

I suggest to the Minister that we are calling quorums every five or ten minutes because my good colleagues in Fine Gael, whom I have admired for the past seven years, are not uninterested, but embarrassed by aspects of this Bill. They cannot say that, though, as they have loyalty, which I understand. Embarrassment is the reason they are not attending. It is not out of lack of interest in this great legislation that the Minister believes will turn the tides of Ireland.

At the outset and because I did not know, I asked what clear waters this Bill was coming from, but it is actually coming from muddy waters. It is not coming from any kind of openness or any rigour of response that the public needs. Effectively, it is saying that the appointment of the Judiciary is so questionable that we must appoint advisers, consultants and commissions to get around it.Instead of correctly putting lay people forward to oversee the election of the Judiciary, which I would not be against, it has become a convoluted one-man band. Because of that, it is not sitting well with many colleagues in Fine Gael, who will not say they find it quite embarrassing and disingenuous. Nonetheless, they find it nasty and do not really want to be associated with it.

I have not heard from the Minister, Deputy Ross, where is the evidence for the Judiciary's inability to do its job and I have not found that evidence in anything I have read - I do not know where it is. I have been sitting here for the last three days, as well as last week, listening to this. I find it extremely embarrassing. I was listening to big arguments about diversity which actually ended up being the triumph of sociology over scholarship. Scholarship, rigour and experience were rarely mentioned. It was all sociological rubbish coming out about badly paid teachers in badly paid departments in I do not know where. It is ridiculous.

I have serious frustrations about it. Senator McDowell is making complete sense. It is not right to silence rigour, knowledge and scholarship because one can only choose a lay person. The Minister should do something about it or accept the Senator's amendment. That is a general point. I will come back to more specific points later.