Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I thank all Senators for their contributions to the debate, which I found very interesting. I have no doubt we will discuss this further on Committee Stage. I thank Senators for the broad support for these measures that is clearly evident. As I said, 20 years ago the Dáil and Seanad were united in regard to the establishment of CAB following the very tragic death of Veronica and it is appropriate to see that support here today, notwithstanding the various points that have been made by Senators regarding possible amendments. I will address some of the points that have been made.

On a general point, international co-operation was mentioned a number of times and is certainly very important. A lot of international work is going on, to which I want to refer briefly. Garda liaison officers are based in London, Paris, the Hague, Madrid and Lisbon and the Garda works very closely with both Interpol and Europol. I have visited Europol and have seen the work it is doing. At the recent Justice and Home Affairs Ministers meeting, one of the key focuses in terms of tackling, not just international criminal activity, but also terrorism was to do further work on the interoperability of the various databases that are being used by criminal justice agencies across Europe, a point referred to by various Senators. It is very important we make progress on that. It costs money, however, and there is a €200 million investment programme in An Garda Síochána in regard to those debates, which is also important. At the last Justice and Home Affairs Ministers meeting, I met with the Justice Ministers of Belgium, the Netherlands, Spain and the UK to discuss dealing with the international face of gangland crime. The point made by Senators in regard to dealing with these issues is very relevant.

The issue of resources was raised. Thankfully, with the improved economic situation we have been able to dedicate more resources to An Garda Síochána. We have had extra recruitment and I hope to be in a position, depending on the budget processes later this year, to accelerate recruitment for Templemore in September in order that we have above and beyond the 600 gardaí we are already training in the course of this year. Further money is also going into Garda vehicles and the other support systems gardaí need. Of course, all of that is the backdrop to this legislation and is the kind of resourcing that is needed. There was a period when resources were not being put in because of the economic situation, and I believe we are playing catch-up in a number of areas.

I want to pay tribute to the work of An Garda Síochána. The front-line work in confronting these gangs requires courage and serious commitment, which we are seeing. I was asked about the armed response unit in Dublin. Recruitment is under way, huge interest has been expressed by Garda members in this regard and they are currently being assessed and trained. Several hundred gardaí applied so there is huge interest in the armed support unit, even though it was said at the time there would not be.

To go back to the details of the Bill, a number of Senators spoke about the ring-fencing of funds and said they would like to put down amendments. I want to make a number of points for consideration before Committee Stage. It is very unusual to ring-fence money for particular projects or communities as it tends to go into the general Exchequer fund, which is the normal way of dealing with it. There was previous consultation with the Department of Finance on this point. While I am not saying I would not be prepared to examine this to see what we might be able to do, it raises a number of practical difficulties, not least because of the variation in assets that are seized from one year to another. Communities might be depending on the assets they get one year and, although they would want sustainable funding, they might not get it the next year. There are practical issues that need to be considered if we were to ring-fence the funds in this way, primarily around the variable and uncertain nature of the value of the assets seized by the bureau in any given year. In addition, potential delays through the possibility of legal challenge to court disposal orders could be problematic in terms of the provision of ongoing funding to community programmes. We can tease out these practical difficulties when we are considering the detail of the Bill. There is also an administrative cost. As I said, it is very unusual from the point of view of collecting Exchequer money to ring-fence it for a particular issue. It usually goes into the general fund and is then used as decided according to Government priorities at budget time.

A number of points were made about reasonable grounds, in particular by Senator Ruane. In legislation, the legal concept of "reasonable grounds" is well understood, and it obviously means what is objectively reasonable. I would make the point that it will eventually be a matter for the High Court to decide on that.

The goods seized can be a combination of goods, not just one item. Safeguards are built in. Senator Boyhan talked about the balances in the Bill and these have been very carefully considered. With the CAB legislation, we have had to be very careful as there have been constitutional challenges, although the legislation has always been upheld.

Senator Craughwell referred to an amendment in regard to the issue of gambling and illegal proceeds. Gambling and money laundering legislation is due to deal with an EU directive, which might be a more appropriate place for that amendment. We can discuss the issue further with the Senator.

I thank Senator Clifford-Lee for her support for the Bill. She spoke about supporting communities, in particular children who have been affected, and about the two recent incidents. I can only join with her in condemning those incidents. This is why we have had to bring forward this kind of legislation to deal with the kind of violence that, unfortunately, we have seen in Lusk today and in other areas in recent days.As both incidents are under investigation, I cannot make any comment on the connections or otherwise to earlier murders. We do know, however, that there are gangs which are intent on having a cycle of revenge and retaliation. To tackle them, we need all of the resources of the State, both practical and financial, that we give to the Garda, as well as stronger legislation.

The CAB has what it calls "asset profilers" around the country. Senator Paul Daly spoke about rural areas. I am very conscious of the need to support communities across the country in their efforts to deal with crime. We have, for example, doubled the funding for Macra na Feirme for the local text messaging scheme. Community involvement is very important in dealing with local criminal activity. Equally, the asset profilers in the CAB are very often members of An Garda Síochána who have good information on the situations about which the Senator talked where there is drug dealing. They report back to the CAB and, where possible, there is an investigation and a prosecution. This has been very helpful across the country in terms of the success of the CAB.

What I am presenting in the legislation is very much in line with the idea of having a mini-CAB which is more local. Communities have stated to us that they want to see people who are dealing in drugs locally, perhaps in smaller amounts than the bigger international players, interrupted. This is very important from the point of view of maintaining the morale of the community. Where people are flaunting assets, we must be in a position to deal with them.

Senator Ivana Bacik spoke about an amendment she might bring forward. We would have to look at it very carefully. As she is well aware, the reason for inserting the period of 21 days is to allow the CAB to gather evidence to see if it can pursue its intention to confiscate the assets. We will certainly examine any amendment she will bring forward, but it might be problematic.

I will conclude on that note. I thank all of the Senators who contributed to the debate and expressed their support for these measures. I am very pleased that there is support across the House for this legislation.