Mr. Joe O'Toole:

Costing the system is like asking the length of a piece of string. We do not know how many people are going to vote. To give some idea of costs, New Zealand, which has roughly the same population as ourselves, has gone over to a system like the one we are proposing. Its last election cost €7 million which is cheap in terms of what an election can cost. If we implement the 1979 referendum result, there will then be 700,000 additional people on the university franchise. The cost of sending out ballot papers for a Seanad election for the National University of Ireland and Trinity College Dublin comes to at least €1.50 per person. Our proposal is cheaper.

We have taken legal advice from three different sources on the electronic voting system. We have been told it is possible and is constitutional. Votes are validated by a number on one's ballot paper. Many people have said this puts a question over the anonymity of the ballot paper. In our proposal, when one downloads a ballot paper, it would have a bar or a QR, quick response, code on it. When the ballot paper is posted back to the returning officer, it would then have to be scanned, like at the airport with an airline ticket. The system would not allow someone to copy the ballot paper and send in three votes. I do not want to destroy Members with details but we have examined every possible question about this system. The national cybersecurity group war-gamed it to see how it could be broken down.

As for votes for Irish passport holders abroad, our legislation will be enabling and will allow restrictions to be put on it. For example, it can say it will be open only to passport holders born in Ireland or who have held one for so many years if one feels it could overwhelm the election. We did not think it would be appropriate to do it now. However, we looked at the figures. The number of passports issued from Irish embassies and consulates averages 65,000 per year over ten years. If they all decided to register to vote, it would come to a maximum of almost 700,000.

We produced a Bill to prove it does not require a distant draftsperson to produce it. We will present this Bill to the Government which can then bring it forward. It is just to prevent any delay in the implementation of our proposals.

We looked at the question of universities and the franchise. The Government has published a draft of a Bill on this. This will be delayed because one cannot have legislation for everything else and not deal with the 1979 referendum result. We took the Government's draft scheme and put it into our Bill. Members might not like that; I do not particularly like it myself. However, this is the way to get something done. It comes into the Seanad which can change all that. We were not prepared to risk the delay of not dealing with a matter on the basis that someone else would have to deal with it. The only recommendation in our report on the university ballot is simply to apply the 1979 referendum. We have inserted a reference to the local government Act which makes it easy to allow immigrants to vote. Senators Bacik and Norris raised the balance of registration across the panels. The 22% and 18% was only in the Oireachtas sub-panels. There is a total of 1,200 people. There are five panels which means there are 250 people per panel. If everyone decided to go on the same panel, there would be an absolute imbalance. To get a balance, people will have the option of registering where they want to but it cannot go above 22% of the total electorate. It is simply to create a balance. It will allow people to change before an election.

We give the popular nomination much thought. We looked at what happened in local elections in recent times when one could do certain things with 30 nominated members on the register of electors. The difficulty of proving they were all legitimate was so difficult we walked away from it. It was the case in the First and Second Seanad. It has worked before but we thought it was too complicated. It is something Members can examine if they wish.

I want to stress our system is not online voting but it is using technology to go that way. Senator Paul Coghlan said it was difficult to see our proposals working independent of party politics. It will work. We believe it has worked previously and it will work again.

Senator Coghlan also raised the role of the returning officer. I recommend Members ask the Clerk to the Seanad as to what it is like to deal with the question of knowledge and practical experience. We think what is in place at the moment is grossly unfair. We have looked through the mountain of work done by the Clerk of the Seanad in dealing with this. There is a low level of support for the Clerk in resources but also when the Clerk takes a decision. It is regularly overruled without any recourse to law to prove that maybe the Clerk was right in the first place. One is not required to be an expert but one is required to have knowledge and practical experience. We have pondered on this. How does one make it easier to decide? It is not about academic qualifications but knowledge and practice. It might be that one is a tradesperson and has one’s papers. It might be that one is a graduate and qualified in some area or another. Neither of those alone would do if one did not have the practical experience. At the same time, one might qualify for the agricultural panel on the basis of having gone to an agricultural college. One might also qualify by having been a farmer for 30 years and prove this is the knowledge that one has gained in this job. One has to prove it to someone’s point of view. It is very difficult to do. We are aware there is difference between qualification, education and knowledge.

Senator Paschal Mooney claimed the timetable was naive. Maybe it is. However, we believe this is the only one. If this is not done before the next election, we believe it will start over again. Every Government starts the clock all over again. It was on that basis that the group decided not to deal with the next election because it would be too rushed and not done properly.

Senator Healy Eames raised the question about which panel would people vote on. That is a choice. We looked at the many different variations of this. In the end, we said people should be able to vote where they want to. We looked at passport holders abroad and a subpanel of three even if 20 million people from abroad vote. In the end, we treated everybody equally but we are proposing legislation that will allow control of any of those matters. As regards the cost of circulating literature, there will be no such cost, it is a case of pressing a button and it will be circulated. This is a cheaper election for everybody.

Senator Norris made the point that he could not get access to information from the college due to data protection. This will have to be covered by legislation, so that candidates for election will obviously have access to the email addresses of everyone on the register and, in that way, it will be a much cheaper and easier election. The information will also be there subsequently.

Some people said they were not happy with receiving an e-mail. Our report was delivered to the Taoiseach at 9.30 on a Monday morning. It was with every Member of this House before 9.35 a.m. the same day. I do not think that has ever happened before. Dr. Manning insisted that we do that, so everybody got it at the same time. It was a fully synchronised issue. That is why it was done in that way, rather than waiting for the printed version, which is now available.

I thank you, a Leas-Chathaoirligh, for allowing us to address the House. It has been a privilege and we greatly appreciate it. I hope I have dealt with all the questions. If anybody has any questions to send in to us, we can deal with all of them.