Jillian van Turnhout (Independent) | Oireachtas source

I welcome the Minister of State. I also welcome the Bill in general. It is good to see it before the House and that the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Shatter, used the committee process to formulate the heads of the Bill. I encourage more Ministers to use this process.

It is important that we do not view the Bill in isolation. It is part of a suite of legislation that includes the Children First Bill, the Criminal Justice (Withholding of Information on Offences against Children and Vulnerable Persons) Act 2012, the Criminal Justice (Spent Convictions) Bill 2012 and the recently passed children's rights referendum.

I wholeheartedly support the Bill, but I will raise some concerns. One concern is the length of time taken to process vetting applications. From the documentation provided by the Library and Research Service I see that the process has improved considerably and been reduced to a matter of weeks. However, the employing organisations in question work with particularly vulnerable children. Having taken a straw poll during the weekend and today, voluntary youth work and sports organisations are waiting months. The average for vetting volunteers is three months, but could be as much as six months. We need to keep this point in mind. The Bill is not concerned with resourcing but it puts the same onus on organisations regardless of whether the persons in question are employees or volunteers. There is a slight get-out clause for large voluntary organisations. It is a considerable burden.

As Senators know, I am involved in the Irish Girl Guides. Someone who volunteers to be a leader wants to be active. I have no difficulty with that person not having unsupervised access to a group. However, one must wait for up to six months for vetting to come through. We can have all of the procedures and legislation in the world but organisations can commit a criminal offence under this Bill if they are not careful about the onus. There is a difference between an employee and a volunteer who helps out on a weekly basis. It is important that the Bill refers to occasional versus regular. However, there is a difficulty, in that they sometimes converge.

The Irish Girl Guides would never allow a non-vetted person to stay with a group overnight. Regardless of whether that person was supervised, he or she would not be allowed in the building. In the run-up to an event, though, a parent may offer to help for the weekend when a leader becomes ill and is unable to attend. We have found other solutions, for example, a leader must come from another area, but I am trying to apply to the Bill the reality of how the system will work in practice.

The Department of Justice and Equality has employed 20 civilians on a temporary basis and includes a number of personnel under the JobBridge scheme to work on the backlog. When the Bill comes into effect, the demand on the vetting bureau will increase significantly. Will this exacerbate the situation? Everyone involved in this debate wants to protect children. Sometimes, I run code of ethics training courses. Child protection in Ireland is a pendulum. For all too long it was stuck at one point and we did not want to consider that children were being abused in any manner or form. If we saw no evil, no evil was taking place. In a way, the pendulum has now swung to the other side. We have become overprotective and are placing burdens on organisations. It is important that we find the right balance in the centre. We should keep an eye on child protection without assuming that everyone is evil or that it is always a question of stranger danger. Some 92% of people who abuse children are family members or are known to the families. This is not stranger danger.

I welcome the provisions on the exchange of soft information. In light of a number of cases in recent years, our efforts would be toothless without that exchange. Under Part 3, subsection 12(3), an organisation can have the defence of "neither knew nor could reasonably be expected to know". This covers volunteers partially, but I am concerned that there is an equivalence.

My second point relates to portability. Senator Power raised the issue of PPS numbers. I am confused about whether they can be used. Many of the people I know volunteer and a volunteer is likely to volunteer in more than one organisation. It is the person's nature, yet he or she must go through the same vetting process repeatedly even if he or she is volunteering within the space of months or a year. I understand that the Minister will not provide for portability because an offence might have been committed during the two volunteering or employment opportunities, yet we are told that re-vetting is not practical. If one has been in an organisation for five plus years, one should be re-vetted. The Minister can consider this issue under the Bill, but no guidelines have been included. I am concerned that we are not sending a clear message to organisations. Is it the case that, once one is in, one is safe and not a harm to children? I have a difficulty with the distinction between employees and volunteers. A volunteer with the Irish Girl Guides will work for two hours per week. Someone might volunteer for years without anyone ever knowing what occurs during the other hours of his or her weekly life.

I am also concerned about the status of being offered a job subject to vetting. I am conscious of the High Court case that is currently before Ms Justice Mary Laffoy about someone who failed to get a job with Kilkenny County Council because of five non-convictions relating to alleged criminal damage, road traffic matters and theft, all cases of which were struck out without evidence being heard. If an organisation has offered someone a job subject to vetting, what is its legal status in a lawsuit after the information comes through?

I support Senator Power's point on childminding. If there is one issue on which I will table an amendment, this is it. We have excluded far too large a group. A grandmother or other family relative might mind a child, but some people engaging in childminding are gaining monetarily and should be covered by the legislation. If someone makes any financial gain, he or she should be covered. This vetting legislation will cover volunteers, but it will not cover people who make financial gains from minding young children. I have an issue with this and I will table amendments. Having read the Dáil debate, I have a number of concerns. In light of the time constraints, I will revert on the issue.

The Spent Convictions Bill is also before the House and I will table amendments to it. I am experiencing a dilemma regarding spent convictions.

A shoplifter may have the spent conviction wiped but it will be on the record for life. Therefore, if a person with such a conviction applies for any social care work, he or she will not be eligible for those courses.

We know from statistics that if a person has not reoffended in a certain time, he or she is as likely as me or anybody else to commit an offence. I have a difficulty with something being carried for life if there is a possibility of a person working with any group. I can understand such a stipulation if a person is to work with vulnerable children and adults, but I am concerned about its operation in mainstream organisations.