Paul Bradford (Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I welcome the Minister of State at the Department of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, Deputy McGinley, to the House and welcome this Second Stage debate on the National Vetting Bureau (Children and Vulnerable Prisons) Bill 2012. When debating the Personal Insolvency Bill last week, Members spoke of the positive impact of the manner in which the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality is now being used to have prior debate on legislation and of how effective is the liaison into which its members enter with interest groups. Once again, the Minister, Deputy Shatter, used the aforementioned joint committee highly effectively, first to outline some of his initial views on this proposal and then to take on board the concerns of all sides of the political spectrum, as well as outside groupings and organisations. The Bill has benefited from that work. It is a lesson to all Ministers and Departments as to how to most effectively use the various Oireachtas committees. As this Bill has already passed through the other House, in a sense the Seanad is acting as the second House and may be little more than a rubber stamp on this occasion because the Committee Stage debate has taken place elsewhere. Nevertheless, it is still important that Members record their welcome for the proposal.

In the course of a balanced contribution, Senator Power expressed her concern regarding the commercial childminding sector to which the Minister of State might make reference in his response. While I may be reading it incorrectly, section 3 indicates the "Act shall not apply to any of the following [activities] namely ... any relevant work or activities undertaken ... for no commercial consideration". I imagine the provision in section 3(1)(b) specifying "for no commercial consideration" means commercial childminding therefore could not be exempt but I am sure the Minister and his officials will clarify this matter because the Senator has raised a valid point that must be brought to certainty.

Most Members will consider the Bill from the perspective of children and the need to further safeguard them. Members welcome the passing of the children's referendum, which will have a positive impact, as well as the introduction in the near future of the Children First legislation. All such legislation has the strong possibility of ensuring that children of future generations will have the protection and safety that sadly, children of past generations did not always fully enjoy. While this must be welcomed by all, Members must also dwell at length on the broader question of vulnerable persons. I refer in particular to vulnerable elderly persons, whether those who are elderly and incapacitated or those who are elderly and suffering from some degree of mental deficiency. These sectors are often forgotten when one considers vulnerable people who are being abused. That said, I acknowledge in sadness that quite a number of television programmes have been broadcast in recent years on the mistreatment of elderly people in some care institutions. It is important to send a strong message that the legislation under discussion also will provide protection for these persons and will ensure the people working with them and for them on a commercial basis must be vetted and that there will be certainty about the propriety of such persons.

While the children's referendum and the Children First legislation are positive measures, I have often made the point in the House that at the other end of the age spectrum, further strengthening legislation on the rights of the elderly must be introduced. My preference would be that some day in the not-too-distant future, there may be a constitutional amendment to also protect, preserve and vindicate the rights of the elderly. This is a matter for future consideration. The Criminal Justice (Spent Convictions) Bill 2012, which has been debated in detail in this House, is mentioned in the legislation because of the various opt-out clauses. It is correct that the Minister is ensuring that the vetting bureau and the legislation underpinning it are not prisoners of the Criminal Justice (Spent Convictions) Bill because there are cases in which the aforementioned Bill is highly appropriate for broader society but might not be entirely appropriate where people are working with children and vulnerable people. Consequently, the Minister has achieved the correct balance in this regard.

I wish to refer briefly to the question of resources and Senator Power of course is correct. It is central to the debate because all the legislation passed reads well and stacks up well on the library shelves of the Oireachtas but for legislation to actually work, it certainly requires resources. Already, in the past few months, Members have been made aware of difficulties with regard to the processing of work in the Garda office responsible for general vetting policy, which I understand to be based in Thurles. If there is a blockage there and if there is a staffing problem, notwithstanding the Government's recruitment issues in respect of the public service, it must try to bring about a solution to ensure that staff are in place and that vetting is carried out within a reasonable timeframe. Members have stated in this Chamber previously that in respect of all legislation passed by this House, apart from the pertinent aspects of the legislation itself, they should ask themselves what will be its impact on employment, on employers and on encouraging people to create employment. If a person has a job or two on offer and if the persons who will fill those jobs must be vetted and will require the appropriate certification, to have a balanced application procedure and to allow everyone to apply and to be considered for the job, Members must try to ensure that vetting is carried out as quickly as possible. This vetting legislation should not act as a bar on someone's employment prospects and I ask the Minister of State to convey to the Minister Members' concern in this regard and their request that the maximum resources and the maximum flexibility within the limited resources available will apply to ensure that sufficient staffing will be in place.

Overall, I have little original to say. As I mentioned, members of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality have had a lengthy discourse on this matter and it received a strong ventilation in the Dáil. It is not merely an aspirational item of legislation and is not simply a matter of Members highlighting how concerned they are in respect of children or vulnerable persons. It is real legislation which can, and indeed must, work. It is an improvement on the previous, relatively lax regulations that were in place. On Committee Stage, where Members will have a little more time, I intend to speak of some of the cases that have been brought to my attention in which there were problems in the past.

Specifically, I will refer to a case at County Cork Vocational Education Committee. In a sad reflection on how not to conduct ourselves, a person who was unsuitable to work with children became the school bus driver. We must ensure that such incidents do not recur. The legislation will be helpful in that regard.

I welcome the Bill from both ends of the spectrum. The concentration may be more on the children's end of the regulations, but we must send an equally strong message that elderly and vulnerable people will have additional protection. We need to consider the resources issue, as the system must work quickly. I hope the Minister of State will be able to resolve the points on which Senator Power sought clarification in order that the Bill can be fully accepted by all parties in the House.