Sean Barrett (Independent)

I echo much of what has been said. I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Joe Costello, and thank the Ministers of State, Deputies Róisín Shortall and Fergus O'Dowd, who stood in for him yesterday.

Some 90% of the content of the treaty has been agreed to already, as Senator Ivana Bacik pointed out. Is that not the problem? Take the situation in which Greece, Portugal, Spain, Italy, Belgium and, latterly, the Netherlands and France find themselves. This is an arrangement of which the United Kingdom and the Czech Republic are not part at this time, while Denmark and Sweden were not included the last time.

We have to say the eurozone, as constituted, is not an optimal currency area. This is the problem we are trying to solve through this harsh fiscal regime. As we went through the issues involved yesterday, I hope I do not tread on the patience of the Chair in the points I wish to make. We always kept to the 3% rule, as well as the 60% rule, until the tsunami of the banking crisis hit us. Article 4 involves trying to redress the balance over a 20-year period by a figure of one twentieth each year, which would impose incredible burdens on the country. I estimate that to move from where we are, where there is probably a 120% debt-GDP ratio, to a figure of 60%, we would probably have to run a surplus of €4 billion to €5 billion a year. However, we have all the economic evidence we need that this is not the way to go. Ireland's role is to say this in Brussels. As Senator Katherine Zappone said, we should say, "By the way, we consult the people."

I thank the Taoiseach for his undertaking that this will happen once and that we will not keep running the referendum until we get the right verdict. Adopting such an approach seriously undermined democracy previously. I welcome the fact that the Cabinet decided to hold the referendum, although, apparently, it might not have been judged as strictly necessary. The Attorney General and the Cabinet have done democracy a service.

For how long is it the wish of people in Brussels and Frankfurt that Germany should run huge surpluses, while other countries experience mass unemployment? Is it not time to say that when one blows up the laboratory, the experiment is over? This is the basic problem that has to be addressed. Rather than saying, "If we pass this referendum, people in Brussels will think we are great," perhaps we might say it is about time the Irish stopped touching the forelock. Instead of saying, "We will receive a subsidy if we vote for it," we should say nobody believes this and that, while it may infringe on the egos of those who promote the euro in its current form, it is time to end the experiment.

I want to put one important technical question to the Minister of State. The reference is to the European Stability Mechanism, ESM, but the only place it is mentioned in the treaty is in Article 8. The place where it is stated we will not be eligible for any more ESM money if we do not vote "Yes" on 31 May is not the treaty, as I see it, but in the preamble. While I have not received legal training and Senator Ivana Bacik is not present, is it not the case that what is included in the treaty prevails over what is in contained in the preamble? What is stated on page 7 of the eight page preamble is exactly what the Oireachtas information service has reported to us, namely, that if we do not ratify the treaty, we will not eligible to receive ESM funding. However, Article 2 in the body of the treaty takes precedence and states the treaty "shall not encroach upon the competences of the Union to act in the area of the economic union". What is happening is undermining the European Union because it is imposing hardship on countries such as Greece and Portugal, as well as this country, as the Minister of State and others more experienced than I in the field of politics will find on the doorstep. I am not sure the world would come to an end if we were to take into account what Article 2 states, namely, the treaty "shall not encroach upon the competences of the Union to act in the area of the economic union".

The system is obviously not working, with massive unemployment, in particular youth unemployment, throughout the European Union. Article 4 will impose severe burdens on us. I agree with Senator Paschal Mooney's point that the 40% of debt incurred to save the banking system owing to the bad design of the euro should be a priority for removal. That is what is stopping the European Union from working and is resulting in mass unemployment. The currency was a step too far and has not worked. There is no longer any point in face-saving for those who promoted it. As Milton Friedman and others pointed out, we sleepwalked into this. One of the lessons is that the Government needs an economic service to serve all Departments, with a level of expertise that could have prevented us from sleepwalking into this arrangement which has now come to a sorry end. We need an exit mechanism and to recognise that one-size-fits-all interest rates do not work. We need a regime of fiscal transfers, which means the Germans should share some of the surplus with the countries being impoverished by these arrangements. We need protection against the tsunamis of mass credit provision which destroyed the banking system, as happened in the case of Ireland.

Are we permanently shut out of the ESM by the preamble, or does Article 8 take precedence? Could we use this issue because we are voting, unlike anybody else in Europe in which there is obviously such huge dissatisfaction? We are the leaders for democracy. I am proud of the Constitution and those who gave it to us as it respects our right to be consulted. I am proud we have a Cabinet that is consulting us instead of doing this behind closed doors. That is one of the reasons so many in Europe sleepwalked into joining an unsatisfactory common currency that is not working.