Denis Landy (Labour)

I welcome the Minister of State to the House. In athletics parlance, this is his third day of training on this issue. He had a good run out on Monday night and a better one at the committee yesterday. Today is the day when spectators look in.

I have just a few points to make. There was a good debate on the issue yesterday, with a good exchange of views. No more than the Minister of State, I have thought some more about the matter. First, it is extremely important that the organisations that represent local government, in other words the practitioners, are included in the consultation process. The Minister of State was a councillor for many years. There are three associations, AMAI, LAMA and the ACC. If these have not been included on the list in regard to a request for consultation they should be added and should get a hearing at some level.

Senator Daly and other Senators referred to what actually happens on the ground at present in regard to the provision of these services. Nothing happens when everything works well but when it does not, as the Minister of State will know from his previous life as a councillor, as do I and the Chairman, the telephone starts to ring and answers are required from the elected representatives.

If we do not have somebody we can ring, we are in trouble. For example, if there is a water leak anywhere in County Tipperary, within 20 minutes, the 26 members of South Tipperary County Council will receive a text message from the senior engineer telling them how long the water supply will be cut off for and that is of phenomenal benefit to them, particularly in their electoral areas. While as a Senator, I do not technically have a constituency under the Constitution, Tipperary South is my constituency and it is important that I have access to that information.

There are optimistic and pessimistic views about what the Minister is trying to do. The optimistic view is that little will change; staff will transfer from local authorities to Irish Water; the Government will meet the IMF requirements regarding the establishing of the body and metering; efficiencies will be achieved in the service; nobody will charged for the installation of the meters; and leaks in the system will be fixed quicker because it will be more efficient. On the other hand, the pessimistic view is that Irish Water will be another quango; connectivity with communities will be lost; there will be no accountability; lip service will be paid customers via the freephone service; leaks will not be repaired the way they used to be; and local councillors, Deputies and, even the Minister of State in County Louth, will be unable to check what is the problem and have it resolved. I do not subscribe to either view. Neither view is exclusively shared by Government Members, on the one hand, and Opposition Members, on the other, as has been witnessed in the debate thus far because there is a mix of views on this issue.

I have a number of questions, some of which the Minister of State addressed yesterday. He did not have an opportunity to address the remainder and, therefore, I will put them again. What choice will the 4,200 staff in the system have? If they decide that they do not want to transfer to the new company, what will remain for them? The Minister of State referred to the river basin model as the way forward for this system. However, it will not assimilate into the regional authority model, which currently has river basin management committees that mean nothing. The Acting Chairman may have served on such a committee during his career but they mean nothing because they have no statutory power. They are in place only to be consulted and advised about what is going on and, therefore, they are useless bodies. The regional authorities have little power either but, at least, they are part of a recognised structure and there are eight in place around the country. If the Government is considering a regional structure for water services, it should examine the regional authority model.

The Minister stated at yesterday's meeting of the Joint Committee on the Environment, Transport, Culture and the Gaeltacht that the new body would be accountable by way of parliamentary questions and requests to attend committees to the Oireachtas. I am not satisfied with that. The new company should be accountable to local government. I am not naive enough to believe that the body has to be hands on but it has to be put on a statutory footing and it must be required to respond to requests regarding leaks, breakages and services that are needed from local government on a structured basis. If that is the only measure the Minister of State takes on board from this consultation, he will make me happy.

Councillors are elected locally. Waste management and health functions have been taken from them in recent years. HSE committees have been established and they also have no statutory powers. The State has privatised much of the local authority housing stock and people are beginning to ask why they should stand for local government or become part of the local government process. Regional planning guidelines outline how a region should be developed. Local authority members must adhere to them but their views on them must be listened to.

One of the Minister of State's officials stated yesterday it would cost substantially less than €1 billion to install the meters. If it costs, say, €500,000, how long will it take to get a return on the investment?

If we forget about setting up a new quango or structure, the Minister of State should go with Senator Whelan's suggestion to give the responsibility for water services to an existing organisation such as Bord na Mona - he is a little biased because he is based in the midlands - or to pick the brains of the existing 4,200 staff who have the most knowledge, expertise in water services and transfer them into a new overarching body. He would not need to seek new staff, as they are available through the service he oversees currently. I agree with Senator Cullinane's point about quangos and additional money. We do not need it because the expertise is available. The body should be drawn from the current staff.