Rónán Mullen (Independent)

Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire. I welcome the Minister and the Bill. In any debate on prisons, I think of the line from the film "The Shawshank Redemption", where the governor of the prisoner stated that all the public wanted when it came to spending on prisons was more guards, more fences and higher walls. At a time of extreme pressure on the public finances, it is interesting to consider the major issue of prison costs. Prison is extremely expensive and the cost of a community service order is about 15% of a prison sentence. The average community service order costs approximately €4,000 compared with €27,000 for a prison sentence. It seems the Minister is motivated by good economic sense as well as good human sense and the two motivations dovetail. This measure makes financial sense and in terms of human dignity and a proper approach to the reform of offenders and creating a more harmonious society we must examine prison as a last resort.

Much has been said about the disconnect between the 85% of those receiving sentences of up to 12 months but when one considers the population serving sentences, only 15% are serving short sentences. The Minister is correct to warn us off thinking this might be a panacea for the problem of overcrowding in prisons. There has not been a tradition of a large prison population in this country, unlike the absurd situation in the United States where the prison population approaches 2.5 million people or 1% of the population. We do have an issue in that our prison population has been rising and has doubled over the past decade. Initiatives such as the Fines Act, which most people welcomed as a more balanced and humane approach in the determination and collection of fines, recognising that alternatives to imprisonment including community service were appropriate in the event of a failure to recover a fine or its value in seized goods. It was ridiculous to think about putting people into prison for non-payment of fines, especially when one considers the reality that those who do not pay fines are often those on lower incomes. I welcome any Bill that builds on the approach that prison should be a last resort. The idea that society will be made safer by putting more and more people into prison defies logic.

As a society, we must scrutinise our motivation for putting individuals in prison. Do we have a criminal justice system designed to punish or rehabilitate? One can consider four functions of prison - to punish, to prevent crime for a temporary period while one is in prison, to deter others and to rehabilitate and reform people without losing faith in the capacity of society to change people for the better. Generally, changing people starts with showing them respect. That is why it is still relevant for us to consider the practice of slopping out, not just as some airy fairy human rights or civil rights concern but for the message it sends out when we treat people in this way and dehumanise people in our prison system. How can we possibly be surprised that they do not emerge reformed and with a more healthy view of their place in society? We must look seriously at the cause of rehabilitation. It is not just a soft, liberal, brainless cause and it is for people of right, left and centre.

If a person has committed a serious crime and represents a danger to others, it is right and just that they are incarcerated but when the court is of the opinion that the danger does not exist, a more creative approach is warranted. We legislate to create effective deterrents to certain behaviours, as seen in the Criminal Justice Bill dealing with white collar crime today. We must focus on the fact that, particularly for young people on short sentences, prisons are universities of crime. People go in for relatively minor offences and come out affected by drugs and having learned the tricks of the trade from more hardened people in prison. While the Minister did not refer to that in his speech, it is in the background when we consider the need to get away from prison as the primary model. Any measure to avoid jailing individuals for comparatively minor offences at the discretion of the court is to be welcomed when set against the negative cost implications for incarceration in addition to the problems arising from drugs and the example people acquire during their time in prison.

I have some suggestions relating to the projects undertaken by those with community service orders. The Minister referred to a community service graffiti removal project. He referred to south County Dublin rather than Dublin South because he did not want to give the impression that people on community service orders were taking down the Minister's election posters. That is one instance of the significant number of community service projects involving environmental improvement programmes, such as graffiti removal, picking up litter and gardening.

I am tempted to say that the use of a mobile phone in the Parliament should be something that attracts a sanction such as a community service order from the relevant body but I will desist. A greater sense of job satisfaction can be developed when something more than mere physical labour is involved and the Minister may consider an example from Britain, the Family Action in Rogerfield and Easterhouse, FARE, project in Glasgow. In 1987, a few residents of Easterhouse, a socio-economically deprived area six miles east of Glasgow, took over an abandoned shop as a club for unemployed youngsters. Over the following 21 years the scheme has relocated three times and built an increasingly secure and substantial funding stream. Rather than asking offenders to paint walls and clean rubbish, is it better to invite them to invest their time in aiding community projects in a more meaningful and long-term manner that forms links with society and creates a sense of inclusion and emotional investment in the community in which they live? I am aware that such involvement may not be suitable for all offenders but it should be considered. The Minister mentioned partnerships formed with tidy towns groups and the partnership between the Probation Service and the Monaghan tidy towns committee to utilise persons in community services is a good example of what is possible. This will require resources and engagement with skilled personnel but it is the way to go. If we are to honour human dignity, it cannot be a matter of keeping them out of prison by putting them doing some work. Proper engagement with individuals' needs and attitudes requires us to take an approach that examines their God-given gifts and see if there is some way they can be deployed. That puts us on the road to reforming people because people sense they are being respected when someone is trying to identify their gifts and talents and use them. It brings people more satisfaction.

In that context, I commend the comments of Senator Cullinane on restorative justice.

I am aware there have been some projects in this area but it is an area that needs exploration. Restorative justice, over and above community service, brings the person, where possible, into contact with those who have suffered as a result of their actions. That puts one firmly on the road to rehabilitation.

In returning to the fair project I mentioned the approach used in Scotland. It is one in which voluntary bodies and volunteers have greater control over services and the individuals assigned to help out. That approach, which seeks to support local community groups and valuable projects, merits greater consideration. It is key to involve the community in any such partnership with the Probation Service. We will get greater buy-in, and that will lead to more successful outcomes.

I was intrigued by what the Minister said, and I may have missed it in his off-script comments, about the low capacity utilisation identified by the value for money review. If I am correct he stated that 33% of the potential for community service is taken up and he made the point that this comes from the fact that a very small number of courts are responsible for the majority of orders made. The Minister gave various statistics indicating that approximately 29 out of 108 courts appointed accounted for about 80% of the total number of community service orders. What is going wrong in that regard? Is it that particular judges are reluctant to take it on? Does that stem from right wing views on community service in that they believe they should all be incarcerated and punished or is it that there is not a tradition of using it in that particular area? I would welcome some clarity on that because the Minister introduced some stark statistics in that regard and they require some background from which we would all benefit and for which we would all be grateful.

Any programme we develop must tackle the major issues in the most socially deprived and disadvantaged areas in our country. One of the characteristics of such areas is the lack of buy-in by the population into the society in which they live. In large measure, people who do not feel part of the mainstream of Irish society believe they are always at a disadvantage and even though the State often invests an enormous amount of resources in those areas, the reality is often that everything is decided for the population, and the people have very little input into decisions such as the design of houses and estates and the provision of community facilities and services.

If we are interested in reducing crime we would be better engaged in looking at the social phenomena behind the crime rather than thinking that by simply locking people up we will achieve results. I hope that future community services projects will take creative approaches to involving offenders in the community in a meaningful way.

I again congratulate the Minister on bringing forward this Bill. I hope it will yield positive fruit in terms of helping to reduce the amount of reoffending. He mentioned in his contribution that a significant number of people given short sentences subsequently reoffend and therefore it is clear the Minister is trying to achieve many laudable objectives in terms of reducing the expenditure, the high expense dimension of prison. He is seeking to take people out of the university of crime and I hope and believe he is also trying to honour human dignity in recognising that there is a category of people in our society whom prison does not serve well in terms of maximising their ability to be reformed and to become more productive and positive members of society. On that basis I commend the Bill to the House and thank the Minister for bringing it forward.