Ned O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)

I welcome the Minister of State to the House and compliment him on the ongoing work he is doing in his brief. Lifelong education is the success story of modern Irish education. The VEC system is also a success story and has been since its foundation in the 1930s. I never taught in a VEC school. I taught for 20 years, ten of them at secondary level. I taught in a comprehensive school where there was partial VEC involvement in management. I have been a member of the Kerry Education Service for ten years and was vice-chairman of it during the last term. Like Senator Ormonde, if I was a racehorse I would have some form.

To go forward with VECs, one must look back to where they came from. As we know, VECs were originally set up to provide training opportunities for young farmers and young men who were not academic and wanted to go into the trades. They provided a very important service. The situation has changed in more recent times and the adult education sector is ever more important and lifelong learning is huge. The VECs provide opportunities to adults to get involved with information technology, IT, training and upskilling at a very important time.

Lifelong education will have to grow even further no matter what changes we make in the future. I am glad that a broad welcome has been given to the Minister of State's initiative. The discussion here has been good and dispassionate, and long may that continue.

Another element of the VEC system is that the education it provided has been free of charge and free of class, something which is part of the spirit of VECs and which I hope to see continue. The deprived in our communities had very little access to second level education. Groups such as the Traveller community would not have had access to education were it not for the VECs because many barriers were put in their way elsewhere.

The institutes of technology are a natural corollary of the success of the VECs and that should not be overlooked. That strong connection is still maintained. The other important part of the VEC structure is its democratic content. There are representations from all groups in society in the management not only of the individual schools but of the VEC scheme itself, not least among which are, naturally, elected representatives such as county councillors because VECs are closely associated with and reflect local authorities. It can be fairly said that elected representatives have not failed in their duties. Many of the chairpersons of VECs whom I have met down through the years have been county councillors who have been able, experienced and not afraid to make tough decisions and ask questions. That role must be protected whatever the confederation of the VECs will be in the future. The role of elected representatives on an inter-county basis must be protected and cherished.

Another element of VEC schools which it is hoped will continue with the new regime is their accountability. No schools are as accountable as the VEC schools. I speak from experience because I was chairperson of the internal audit committee of the Kerry Education Service and we were put through a rigorous audit every quarter and term, not just every year. In comparison with the desperate and obscene waste we have witnessed in some of the quangos and now infamous organisations where there seems to have been little or no accountability, every penny spent by the VEC in Kerry - I am sure it is the same all over - was properly accounted for.

We have witnessed duplication over the past five to six years where other groups did work which was within the remit of the VECs. Although the latter had the expertise, buildings, infrastructure and knowledge, every kind of community development association was setting up training and life skills programmes and so on which trebled or quadrupled costs. Some sense is now coming into such programmes because that kind of overlap was unnecessary and wasteful.

Change is good. Everything must change; otherwise things will stagnate. The yardstick by which the success of this initiative will be judged is whether the new structures will enhance educational opportunities and provision in the country. I believe they will and it is for that reason I support them. I like some of the elements which have not been highlighted in the media. I like the fact, referred to by Senator Ormonde and others, that the VECs will be given an enhanced role in procurement on an aggregate basis for all schools in a vicinity. I like the further development of VECs in terms of their becoming involved in the management of community primary schools. I also like the idea that there will be more relationships, co-operation and working together between VEC and non-VEC schools. For long enough we saw the stand-alone approach of local secondary schools, be they Christian Brothers schools or diocesan schools, and the VECs. They were like enemies rather than groups which were working together for the good of the community. That development is commendable and I hope it will continue.

The reactions of VECs have been mixed and there has been something of a knee-jerk reaction. I have been contacted by many people in the education service in Kerry who are concerned. Kerry has been one of the more successful VECs and passes the budget criteria in so far as its budget is larger than the minimum set down for the new process. It might have to revisit that.

In terms of county identity, something will be lost for every county and we will have to work to protect it. A person living in Kenmare, for example, might feel disenfranchised if a school management board was managed by someone living in Hospital in County Limerick which is almost on the Tipperary border. The location of the headquarters of the VECs will have to be handled very sensitively. They should not be located in big cities just because we have big cities. Let us go for the median approach.

Ten chief executive officer posts will be abolished. There will be some natural wastage. I am concerned about the position of TUI members. I am a former member of the TUI. It is not protected by the Croke Park agreement as a result of its decisions. I ask that the TUI leadership revisit the Croke Park agreement to ensure teaching staff are protected. When the old town VECs were closed and amalgamated with counties some ten or 15 years ago, there was awful ruaille buaille. People were throwing their clothes off and saying it would not work at all. Would anyone present state we should bring back town VECs? We must look forward.

Real consultation will be vital because elements of this will be very serious for individual schools. Will they remain open or will there be closures? Issues have also been raised with regard to teacher security. Will the conditions of service of teachers appointed to a VEC scheme change because they will be in a different VEC? Will we have to redraw the school transport boundaries in light of the changes? We want something that will be coherent and positive. We do not want something dysfunctional. The county unit has served us well throughout the years and if we change it, as we appear to be doing, it will have to be done very sensibly with maximum consultation with existing VECs.