Feargal Quinn (Independent)

I always have a difficulty following Senator Ormonde on education matters because she has such knowledge, expertise and enthusiasm. In the way an actor is told never to share the stage with children or animals because one will always lose out, I always feel that way in this area. It is a delight to hear Senator Ormonde speak about these issues.

One area where I have some knowledge is in regard to the leaving certificate applied as I was chairman for five years of the leaving certificate applied committee and I learned exactly what Senator Ormonde has just discussed. The Minister of State, Deputy Haughey, is responsible for lifelong learning. The leaving certificate applied is an area that identifies those other intelligences that are sometimes not regarded highly. Those children who were left behind early in their school days because they were regarded as not very academically bright were regarded almost as failures. When one sees them taking the leaving certificate applied, one suddenly sees their other abilities, talents and intelligences. Mr. Charles Handy wrote that he believes there are ten different intelligences and Mr. Harold Gardner measured seven different intelligences, yet we only measure one in the traditional leaving certificate. This is why it is important we put more into the efficiency of our education system.

While the savings expected by the amalgamation of the VECs will be relatively modest, the Government must cut costs as if it was running a business. I hope the restructuring of the VECs' administration will make them more efficient. There is a very odd situation whereby some VECs have large amounts of work compared to others. We must bear in mind that the VEC system has been almost untouched since it was begun in the 1930s.

The VEC system is involved in important work, running 240 vocational and community colleges and also further education colleges with more than 30,000 students, a figure that amazed me, as well as programmes such as Youthreach for early school-leavers and adult education services. I was interested to learn recently that work is to start next year on a €20 million education campus in Monaghan. I understand the Government has given its commitment to the project but in the wake of the VEC amalgamation announcement, I want to know whether the Government still supports it. Perhaps the Minister of State will update us on the present situation in Monaghan and whether the project will go ahead.

I always like to think of the "customer". When I first came into the Seanad, I was not sure how I would handle Bills until I began to look for the customer in each Bill, whether the Road Traffic Bill, the Health Bill or otherwise. In education, the customer is the student. I am glad to hear the views of several of the CEOs of the VECs stating that students will not be adversely affected. For example, the CEO of Leitrim VEC, Mr. John Blunney, said the amalgamation is a major change from the point of view of the CEOs and the administration staff but that it should not adversely affect teachers and student services.

VECs administer two thirds of third level student grants, which involves some 60,000 students, and are due to take over operation of the entire grants system under the Student Support Bill. This legislation has been awaiting movement in the Dáil for almost two years, which is too long. My proposal on presumed consent has been waiting for two years at this stage. Will the Minister update us on the status of the Student Support Bill? When is it planned that it will come before this House? On the point of the VEC administering grants, would it not make sense for just one office per county to administer these grants? Could this function, along with the local school transport scheme, be transferred to another Department? The logical Department would be the Department of Social Protection as it has the information to judge whether people are deserving of this support. What does the Minister of State think of this idea?

Under the new arrangement, County Dublin and Dun Laoghaire VECs are to be merged. What is the rationale of not including the City of Dublin VEC in this merger? Would one administration for Dublin not be sufficient?

Will the Minister of State explain whether the VECs will retain offices in each of the former 33 locations? If so, this would mean there would still be significant costs to maintain these offices. I am worried there may be no actual reduction in the number of staff, similar to what happened with the HSE. When, for instance, will voluntary redundancy be offered? I am also concerned that it could be a year or 18 months before the changes in the VECs come into effect. We need action today, not for this to be put on the long finger, as we need to save money immediately - we have talked about doing it up-front or later. Will the Minister expand on why the legislation will take so long to implement?

I understand the Opposition has backed the Minister's plans. We have heard from the Opposition about working together to solve our problems, and this is a concrete example of giving the Government support when it makes the right decisions. While I very much welcome this, the obvious question concerns the issue of quangos. If we are to tackle costs in organisations like the VECs, the Government must have the resolve to take the tough decisions on quangos and implement even more of Mr. Colm McCarthy's recommendations. Making savings now is essential for the future of the country.

I support the Government in this worthwhile reorganisation. It will lead to savings and, I hope, to a much more efficient organisation. However, I have several concerns, including the length of time it will take to introduce. I would be pleased if the Minister of State could address the concerns I have outlined. I appreciate his attention, I am delighted he is present and I welcome this discussion.