Rónán Mullen (Independent)

I know you will want to be very fair in allowing it to me. Senator Walsh was correct in pointing to the need for objectivity when it comes to assessing what is in the best interests of children. In that regard I, too, was surprised by the comments of the president of the Law Reform Commission. I recall an occasion when a previous president of the Law Reform Commission lost his job because he dared to express a view on the abortion issue. As we know, he subsequently settled a case. When people pooh-pooh evidence, it worries me as to what extent any of us would get any respect were we to approach the Law Reform Commission with any kind of evidence.

Likewise, I had not considered the timing of the report of the Ombudsman for Children, but I would prefer if, generally speaking, personages such as the president of the Law Reform Commission and the Ombudsman for Children would confine themselves to assisting us within our constitutional apparatus. To recommend, for example, the widening of the law to provide for applications by same-sex couples for adoption would be to go beyond the requirements of the Constitution. Therefore, I think one is justified in questioning the appropriateness of that particular recommendation being made.

In respect of what Senator Bacik said about guardianship, we must be careful here. It is agreed that there is a wide category of situations where something may have to be done for children in respect of guardianship. However, things are different in circumstances where a non-married biological father just has the right to apply to be considered for guardianship. Let us be very careful of doing anything under the heading of civil partnership that would undermine the child's primary right, which is to the care and society of his or her biological parents as far as possible.

Internationally, it cannot be said that there is anything like a recognised human right to same-sex marriage or same-sex adoption. There has been correspondence in that regard. Last year, Amnesty International sought to bring the case for same-sex marriage and adoption under the international human rights architecture. In fact, it is patently clear that the references are to the rights of men and women of marriageable age to marry and to found a family. Those terms "men and women" are used quite distinctly, because there are more general references to "people" or "persons" elsewhere in those human rights instruments. The very specificity of the reference to men and women suggests it was clear what was intended. None of the contracting parties sought to enter protocols or distinctions when these rights instruments were being drawn up.

It is important that we have a debate about where the best interests of children lie. There will be other times in this debate when we consider the appropriateness of people making arrangements with surrogate parents or sperm donors to bring children into the world so that they may parent. I will certainly be opposing any sense of a right to have a child under that heading, but that is all in the background of what we are discussing here. In trying to secure the best interests of children, we must not be blind as to what are the ideal and preferred circumstances in which children come to be parented. We cannot be bleeding hearts about the best interests of living children and totally neutral about the circumstances in which children come to be parented. We have to open our eyes and take one hard look at what the evidence has to tell us in that respect.