Joe O'Toole (Independent)

I welcome the Minister of State. One of the problems is that this debate reflects on the individuals we appoint to the board of the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland because it has become so narrow. I disagree with Senator Mooney, although I agree with much of what he said. I recall i rith na seachtaine seo caite bheith ag féachaint ar clár ar feadh uair a chloig, déarfainn, ar Fleadh Cheoil na hÉireann. It was the subject of a whole programme. That is to answer the point made. When I walk down a street in France and hear a U2 song being played in a pub, shop or restaurant, I know it is an Irish sound. Traditional music started somewhere, but the Senator made some relevant points. Much of what he said made sense, but at a time when the Government is being criticised time and again for engaging in cronyism, looking after its own and so on, the most important point is that the establishment of the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland represented a badly needed step forward in public sector appointments.

The Broadcasting Act 2009 was initiated in this House. In the course of the debate we argued with the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Ryan, on the need for openness and transparency, although I do not assign the same high value to them as others do. However, it is useful to have such an element long the way, but I never agreed with the former Taoiseach, Mr. John Bruton, on governing behind a pane of glass. "Transparent" was a word used in Dingle to describe somebody who was a bit simple. Therefore, I have always been careful in using that phrase. However, I am not coming from that point of view, but we asked for openness in the making of appointments. When the Minister would not go along with us on this suggestion, I proposed that before people were appointed, they come before the Joint Committee on Communications, Energy and Natural Resources. The Minister included it in the legislation that the joint committee would recommend names, but did not agree that they should appear before the committee. He took the same position in the Dáil.

I am a member of the joint committee and when the time came for the joint committee to deal with the matter, I met the Fianna Fáil chairperson, Deputy Nolan; the Fine Gael spokesperson, Deputy Coveney, and the Labour Party spokesperson, Deputy McManus. I indicated to them what was happening in other countries and asked that we try to conduct the process differently. I said we should go through a process in such a way that nobody could point the finger at us and say it was not fair. We devised a process which involved the placing of an advertisement in the newspapers, using an outside agency to short-list names and engaging in hard interviews followed by a presentation of the individuals who would be recommended to the full committee in public session. We met the Minister informally and told him what we intended to do. We also told him we did not want to have a big row about the matter, that this would be a model of best practice and that it had never been done before. He said he would check with his Government colleagues. He got back to us and agreed to do it.

It was hugely important that the advertisement was placed in the newspapers, as it attracted people of the highest calibre from all walks of life and the highest levels in the private sector, the arts, broadcasting, public and private, independent and otherwise. I wish I could highlight the quality of the individuals who applied, but I cannot for reasons of confidentiality. The process showed that, first, there was a huge bank of talent available and, second, that there were people who were prepared to make a contribution because they were not applying for the position for the €5,000 or €6,000 they would earn a year. That was not their intention.

It is important to note that, despite what Senator Walsh said, we engaged in this process as a private sector operation from start to finish. We used private sector techniques in short-listing names, etc. I recall arguing with Senator Walsh on the point that the legislation stated candidates had to have experience or shown capacity in one or more of the 12 areas mentioned which included media affairs, public service broadcasting, commercial broadcasting, community broadcasting, the digital area, business or commercial affairs, matters pertaining to the development of the Irish language, disability, culture, environment, etc. I said that if I was in charge of the process, I would have indicated that they should have experience in two or three areas because we were only recommending the names of four people. I said I would set a certain number of essential and desirable requirements and short-list names in that way.

That might not have suited some people. Many people would like to ensure some form of cronyism was maintained so that they could propose people for reasons other than best practice and they might not have liked it.

The House should understand that the interviews were focused more on the business plan than anything else because all the candidates had experience. They were nearly all people with commercial experience - independent broadcasters. We came across one woman i gceartlár Ghaeltacht Chonamara a bhí tar éis cláracha a chur le chéile which had won prizes all over New York. These programmes were shown on CBS and NBC, but I had never seen her photograph in an Irish newspaper. She was appointed to one of the boards we were dealing with at the time. The people in question had distinguished themselves in areas of Irish life.

The questions we put to the candidates were along the following lines. We asked them what they would do about the fact that RTE lost €70 million last year. We asked how we would get payment for RTE's great website, which is possibly the best website in Ireland for news. We asked if they agreed with what Murdoch was doing in charging for content on The Times website. We asked if we could do certain things, whether they would do those things and what their view was on those things. We put those questions to check people had thought through what they would do. We asked for detail on what their business plan would be and about how they would deal with issues. We were not interested at all in their views on how much Irish language broadcasting there should be on a station because we wanted to select people who would take strategic decisions for Irish broadcasting rather than for individual radio stations.

At the very first meeting of the board, it was hit with the issue of the levy on the various radio stations throughout the country and I thought it handled the issue very badly. I say that as one of those involved in the appointment of the board, but at the same time I recognise that it takes time for a board to gel. The members were dealing with a set of figures put in front of them and had to make decisions. It looked like they were up against it and they should probably have said "No" at the time, but they made a decision. In the meantime, they have changed it. I would have confidence in the board. We established something else with the board. We brought all the candidates before the committee and they explained their backgrounds, said what they had to say and took questions from the committee in public session. We made it clear to them that the board would be called back before the committee at least once a year to explain what it was doing, what it had found, what changes needed to be made and what progress was being made.

The Minister should be aware of this. When he is being hammered in the media about the Government's inaction, he can use this as an example of what it is doing. He can chalk this up and say it is something no previous Government has done. The media has been calling for openness in the appointment of State bodies for years. This is openness in practice. This is not like the kind of theatre one finds in Washington where people are interviewed before a committee which tries to find reasons not to appoint them. Our process was different. We told everyone who appeared before us that they would be required to appear before a further committee and state their experience and what they could bring to the party. We would have indicated what strengths they had and their experience. The challenges involved in that are important.

RTE was mentioned in the earlier part of this debate. RTE has six radio stations, two or three of which are very good digital audio broadcasts only. These may not continue but they are of the highest quality. One of these is a Radio 4 type programme. It will probably never make money but the question must be asked whether RTE should retain the programme. I do not know, but the kind of people we tried to select for the board would deal with such questions. The criteria for the ideal candidate for the board stated the ideal candidate should demonstrate exceptional interpersonal skills, a proven track record at strategic level and the ability to think creatively. This did not mean creatively in terms of programme making, because the people selected were not going to be involved in programming, play lists or anything like that. It was about looking at Ireland as a unit for broadcasting and being creative in that regard.

The issue of relevant financial experience was raised with every candidate. They were asked whether they understood accounts and their importance and the importance of providing a report on the accounts. It was pointed out clearly, for example, that RTE did not have a €70 million shortfall last year. It had a €70 million reduction in income, but it kept going by doing precisely what was required of it, as would have been required in the private sector. That seems to have gone unnoticed by Senator Walsh and, perhaps, Senator Quinn. RTE simply had to take on the extra work and hours and had to reduce staff to make it work. It succeeded in that and credit must be given to it and Cathal Goan for making it happen. Tá na rudaí sin thar a bheith tábhachtach. I do not know whether what has been done will work but I and my colleagues on the Joint Committee on Communications, Energy and Natural Resources will be interested in hearing the outcome.

We should consider what directions we should give to this board. These will not be about the content of radio stations but about how to create a national broadcasting strategy. Senator Walsh asked whether this could be done by the Department. It could, of course, but the point about the broadcasting authority is that through it one has gone into civic society and, for small money, raided the talent bank of the community to make it work for the State. That is the reason for the authority and why it is important. Perhaps that is not a good idea or people do not want that because it is easier to tighten up, keep a tight fist and let no one interfere.

What the Government has done in the establishment of the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland is a role model of good practice. It is something for which the Government can take credit. This is an important achievement. The question now is how it will deliver. It will be our responsibility to be a watchdog to ensure it delivers for us at all times. If it does not deliver, it is our responsibility to question, harry and put pressure on it, as we did with the Minister. We argued with him on the question of the broadcast levy. He won the argument, but that is not the point. The point is we engaged and dealt with the issue. I hope and have a vested interest in ensuring the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland does a good job, and I believe it will.

The question of a conflict of interest was raised with us by people within RTE who did not want people from the commercial area involved in boards that might make decisions for RTE because those people might have a conflict of interest to try and do better than RTE. There will always be an overlap when one selects people from an area of expertise. Conflict of interest is something that is dealt with by the chair of a board of directors. The chair will ensure a member declares a conflict of interest where it arises and that he or she does not involve himself or herself in the decision on such an area.

I welcome the Minister and congratulate him on his openness to change and on bringing forward the process for the appointment of the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland.