Frances Fitzgerald (Fine Gael)

I welcome the opportunity to contribute to the debate. I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Barry Andrews, to the House. He has a critical role in the issues that arise from the Ryan and Murphy reports.

Ms Justice Murphy has done an excellent job. In fact, I would like to quote so much from this report and put it on the record of this House, but I do not have time to do that today. Suffice it to say that the clarity with which the report speaks and with which it draws back the curtain on church practices is extraordinary and outstanding. It is quite difficult at times to believe what one is reading about what happened.

It also provides a stark reminder of the raw pain, hurt, anguish and degradation experienced by children subjected to child clerical abuse in the archdiocese of Dublin. It is quite clear we need an audit in other dioceses as well, and perhaps the Minister of State could respond to that. I am concerned that only recently this House discussed the HSE's attempt to get an audit done and the inadequate answers it got at that time. I understand the Minister of State and the HSE have taken this up and I would like a briefing to the House on that.

The report exposes the utter failure of both church and State to protect children and to investigate complaints. It reveals how priests engaged in clerical child abuse, and how they were protected and the children involved exploited. One can only imagine the terror, pain and hurt of the victims - the children - and their families when they sought to get the truth, thought they were going to the authorities in the church who would deal with their complaint, and were not listened to. It was abuse all over again. One must give great credit to those who persevered and ensured that the truth eventually came out.

What is staggering in the report is the systematic strategy by the church leadership to protect the institution at any price. The editorial in The Irish Times today puts it clearly. It is an extraordinary editorial when one sees what it states: "That culture of silence, denial and the protection of financial assets was instituted by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, under papal authority." It goes on to speak of "medieval-style structures".

It also comments on the Taoiseach's "painfully deferential statement". People in the country are concerned, and it is another matter to which the Minister of State might like to respond. The Taoiseach's statement was seen as deferential, in contrast to the way the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Martin, and the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Dermot Ahern, in this House dealt with the issues that arise from the report. That is of concern.

It is quite clear from the report that priests were moved from parish to parish, from places where they had damaged children to new places where children were easy prey. I could quote from the report where priests went from one area to another, for example, where a priest was moved in to work in a convent and the nuns were not told about his background, and likewise in various parishes. It is scathing in its description of how complaints were ignored, overlooked or dismissed, how a deliberate blind eye was turned and obscure mind games were used when victims sought the simple truth about these crimes of the most heinous nature.

Often the State did not know, except at times the Garda would appear to have been involved. There was conclusion, however, of which I will speak in a moment. People went to the church because they thought their issues would be dealt with there. It was really a mark of their faith that that is where they went.

It is quite clear from the report that the abuse was not exceptional and it did not take church authorities by surprise. The church actually knew, but far from protecting the most vulnerable, it suffered the little children to face repeated and vile abuse by people serving in its name. That is there for all to see. It is clear.

The church also went about developing strategies which involved insuring against a known problem, denying the problem and its extent, and protecting abusers. In doing all this, as I stated, it was abusing the victims once again. When one has been victimised, the worst that can happen is that one is re-victimised and get that experience again, and that is what happened. That is why the report is scathing of the church authorities, but also of the State and its agencies. It says that the actions of gardaí involved in investigating the case of one serial clerical sex abuser in the 1980s were "shocking". It accuses gardaí of connivance with the church in stifling one complaint, failing to investigate another, and allowing a priest under investigation to leave the country. This is quite extraordinary.

I welcome the response of the Garda Commissioner, Mr. Fachtna Murphy, and I acknowledge the changes in Garda practice which we have seen since the 1990s. The situation must be kept under review, however, as the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Dermot Ahern, said in this House last week. While all of this makes for depressing reading, it is good that the truth has come out.

Where do we go from here? It is clear that the days of a deferential State are over. There is just one legal framework in this country, that of the State. Canon law can never again be set as an alternative or, as seems to have been the case in many respects, a predominant law. Nor should diplomatic protocol be used.

I do not have time to go into the details of what the Minister said about the contact between Departments, but why was the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform not more proactive in ensuring that the commission got the material it needed? Something was missing in that response. They passed the material on, but given the seriousness of what was under discussion, there was room for a more proactive approach by the Department. I note the Minister said it was dealt with at official and not political level, but a question mark remains. I was not impressed by the way in which the Taoiseach dealt with this question when it arose. In many ways, it was about playing mind games and refusing to understand what was going on.

There is no question but that people's trust in the church has been very damaged. The extraordinary article by Vincent Twomey in The Irish Times today makes for incredibly sober reading. He states:

These criminals have caused profound damage to the numerous laity, men and women, who have remained "faithful", despite the scandals and the failure of the Irish church to nourish them, their children and grandchildren on the riches of this faith.

He also talks about the incompetence of the way in which the church is organised here. The article makes for sober reading from the professor emeritus of moral theology at St. Patrick's College, Maynooth.

The church's failings have been shown very clearly, but what is our role as parliamentarians? That is the key question. What is the role of the State in relation to the church? We are definitely at a crossroads concerning church-State relations. We need to be thorough and open in exploring whether a whole new set of arrangements would best serve the interests of children in future. We must undertake an audit of current church-State relations, whether they concern health, education or the protection of children. We need such an audit, as well as an open and proper debate. These issues must be dealt with, including whether to establish an education forum and whether the church's role in various hospitals is still appropriate. That discussion is for another day, but I just wanted to put down a marker on it. We need a full assessment at this point, however.

For decades the church has had a level of influence which must now be questioned in a republic that sets out to serve the people and protect our children. Much good work has been done, but when one reads about these horrors it undermines some of that work. There is no question about that. People are focusing on what is in these reports and it is clear that for too long parliamentarians bent the knee to church leaders.

We need to hear from the Minister concerning the child protection measures that must be put in place. In the forthcoming budget, will we be prepared to put in place the financial structures required to implement the Minister of State's response to the Ryan report? Are we willing to prioritise this issue above and beyond all others, and in spite of the fiscal challenges we face? I imagine the Minister of State, Deputy Barry Andrews, is putting that question to his Cabinet colleagues. It is a very real one. Every day we hear of gaps in child protection services, including the independent inspections of residential care facilities where children with physical and intellectual disabilities are placed. When will that change? Does the Minister of State have the resources to deal with that now? If not, when will he have them? We should have independent reviews of the deaths of children in State care, but does the Minister of State have the resources? When will it start?

When will the resources be put in place to prevent children from being put into adult psychiatric hospitals for treatment of mental health issues? More children are being placed in such hospitals this year than last year, but how can happen? How can we put more children with mental health difficulties into adult psychiatric wards for treatment than in 2008, despite all the talk about the Murphy report? How can we stand by?

Yesterday, I saw the Minister of State replying to questions in the Dáil about missing children. I did a report on this matter and interviewed some of the children concerned. The isolation and despair they felt was extraordinary. One can only imagine the terror of children who go missing into the sex industry and what they must experience. They receive a different level of care to Irish children in care. That must stop. They must get the same level of care. We must protect these children. It is not an easy issue. I note the Minister of State said that many of these children go back to their families. I hope that is correct, but I suspect that many of the children disappear into dangerous situations.

The Minister of State's report on the Ryan report contains 99 recommendations. We need a further debate, however, on the implementation of that report. The aspirations and wording of the Minister of State's report are very good, but are they backed up by resources and personnel? Which recommendations have been implemented to date? Have the timeframes been adhered to? These are really serious questions. I have gone through that report, which is a good check-list of what needs to be done. However, we must have feedback on it from the Minister of State as to whether what needs to be done is actually being done and if the resources are there. The Ombudsman for Children is the only independent office in the country solely charged with listening to children and highlighting their concerns. It should not be downgraded or have its resources cut in today's budget. I hope it will not happen because that office has an important role to play.

If the Minister of State gets the resources and is in a position to deal with the range of issues I have outlined, the Government will give a strong message that it is not just about words. It is not just about the shock and condemnation that everybody feels when they read the Murphy and Ryan reports. If the Minister of State gets these resources to implement a programme to deal with the issues I have outlined, he will give a strong signal that children matter. I look forward to hearing his response to the many outstanding issues regarding child protection. On a simple level, however, his response is all about the aspiration to cherish all the children of the nation equally. Quite clearly, this task falls to the State in terms of setting standards and assurances. We must never again hand the care and protection of our youngest citizens over to a body that is not accountable. This is clearly what happened and untold damage was done as a result. We must examine the Murphy and Ryan reports together. We must also look at the 1,000 victims who went to the Ryan commission. When one reads the Murphy report one can see even more clearly what they were up against and how incredibly difficult it must have been for them when they were ignored. We can never again turn a blind eye.

Many cases of abuse are being reported to the HSE, but I am afraid that with long waiting lists for child and family centres - some of them are closed around the country - we are still turning families away. We are not meeting their needs or responding to the crisis affecting many families today. I wish the Minister of State well. He has a huge task and I hope he gets the resources to deal with it. We cannot be complacent, either about the issues in the report, or the State's ability to respond to children and families in trouble today.