Joe O'Toole (Independent)

I am very pleased with the way the Minister of State has dealt with this matter and he has answered all of my points. I accept the argument on the first amendment that the people in question can be invited. I recognise that one could compromise one's independence by giving people such a right.

The Minister of State made an interesting point, perhaps one not to be debated now. I listened very closely with the regard to the interchange of the words "accountable" and "responsible", an issue on which we need a longer debate. We know what accountability means. Very often it comes into play in political life when people talk about resignations and the difference between somebody being held accountable and responsible. The board has a responsibility to ensure the Accounting Officer is held accountable, or it has a responsibility to have in place all the necessary arrangements to ensure the Accounting Officer is held accountable. I do not want to engage in tautology but I like to distinguish between these two words. For instance, in a Department the Accounting Officer is the Secretary General but the responsible person is generally the Minister who has political responsibility. They are different roles and it is important that the distinction is maintained. I am satisfied the distinctions the Minister of State made are correct, or they mirror my view that one must ensure one does not confuse the responsibility of the board with that of the Secretary General or, in this case, the chief executive officer or whatever he or she is to be called.

Yesterday we had a debate on the section of the Bill which states a person transferring from the Civil Service to the commission will become a civil servant of the State. I said that was the kind of problem which was creating a need for the transformation of the public sector. It is a dearly held view of mine that whether one is a teacher, a nurse, a civil servant, a person working in the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission, etc., one should simply be described as a "public servant", that there should be an integrated public service and that staff should be capable of being redeployed from one area to another as required by the State. That happens in France at a departmental level. I have strayed from the agenda but the Minister of State and I have discussed aspects of this issue at various times.

The distinction between accountability and responsibility is crucial. Those who work in the Houses are civil servants of the State but I want to ensure that, as we move towards a transformation of the public sector, the distinctions vanish.