Liam Twomey (Fine Gael)

It reflects the fact that one can find oneself out on one's ear fairly quickly. It is said that one is not a real politician until one has won and lost an election. I managed to achieve that fairly quickly. However, continuing to pay a ministerial pension to a sitting TD on a substantial salary was not right and needed to be addressed. That is the sort of thing that gives the public a bad impression and brings to mind the expressions "gravy train" and "fat cats". The public is not as anti-politician as they would like us to think if they believe we are being reasonable. They do not mind politicians getting a pension having served a certain amount of time, but maybe not a long time, because of the nature of the job we do.

I would be the first to admit that the pension is good, but there is a need to make some changes. Some of the procedures relating to certain allowances and fees could be misconstrued by the public who are facing much tougher times than we are facing. There is a need for people to understand the job we do and the difficulties of that job, but there is also a need for us to understand that when people feel they are under attack they must stand up for certain things. Linking TDs' pay to a grade within the Civil Service is an important move because it removes the political aspect from it. TDs are then paid the same salary as individuals in a grade because their work has been deemed comparable to the work of that grade and they cannot be paid an extra salary for any other reason. In terms of the allowance Members of the Oireachtas get, most Members can defend them adequately. However, if the public feels we are hiding anything or that something is a bit opaque, we should shine a strong light on it and explain properly why we get what we get. It is easy for people who have lost their jobs or who have gone on a three-day week and are suffering now to attack politicians. It is becoming easier as well for people to attack civil and public servants. It is important for us as politicians and public servants - as a doctor I consider myself to be a public servant - to stand up for what we do and defend what we get. It is also important, however, to empathise with the individuals who are in trouble.

I ask the Minister to examine the points I have made so that this will not be seen in a couple of years' time as having been a waste of time because somebody can conclusively prove in the courts that the Minister has done the wrong thing. That was my concern when I was looking at this legislation.