Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)

In respect of the point made by the eminent Senator Norris, good and worthy people are not always popular people. We have seen how the greatest people have stood for election and have not been elected at the early stages for one reason or another but have become probably the best parliamentarians we have had during that particular time in the country's history.

When I entered the Seanad in 1982, it used to sit for about half a day a week. It would then sit for only about seven months of the year. We have come a long way and have achieved a great deal. The greatest change I have seen in my time here has been the fact that almost 30% of legislation is initiated in this House. It is a great tribute to the Taoiseach, the present Government and those of the past ten years that this has been the case. The amount of good work that Senators have done in respect of legislation and the assistance they have provided to Ministers and their portfolios and Departments has been untold. We have certainly have made an immeasurable positive contribution in this House.

We must also say that over that period, there has been a huge amount of change in personnel here. If we look back over 25 years, we can see that only two Senators from that year are serving in the House and two others have just passed the 25-year service mark. If one looks at the new Seanad, one can see that it has 35 new Members and that 25 Members have not previously served in either the Dáil or the Seanad. It is not an old boys' club and that lie should be put to rest.

We must see the facts and use common sense. The Seanad is a necessary second or upper house for the protection of the Constitution on behalf of the people on a mostly non-political basis. The level of debate in this House deals with legislation and proposed amendments to legislation placed before us. The serious and urgent matters that arise occasionally need the urgent attention and the expertise among Members of Seanad Éireann that may not be available in the Dáil. There are Members of the Seanad who would never get elected to Dáil Éireann for one reason or another. This has been handed down for generations and we have all seen the greatest examples of it.

In respect of the job being done in the Seanad in respect of this review, all panels will be seriously reviewed. However, if something is good, one should not break it. Something that does not meet modern needs must be amended and adjusted. There is a place for everyone to play. I am fortunate to be one of those Senators elected to and represented on those five panels and am certainly very happy with the way they contribute to the House in a true vocational sense that was set up by the former Taoiseach and President, the late Éamon de Valera.

Given the work done by the Leaders and the Chief and Deputy Whips of all parties and everyone assisting in the Seanad, as well as the number of hours they put in, the issue of remuneration must be examined. There is no such thing as a part-time Senator; Senators are here for three and a half days. In my job as Leader of the House, I spend four full days here. Given the work done by the Government Whip, the small amount of money given to them borders on an insult.

These are serious matters which the review must examine. Given the calibre of the people who are asked to perform the duties of the Upper House, they must be seriously rewarded. Nobody does nothing for nothing nowadays, so to speak. I am saying this on behalf of other Members rather than on my own. I fully support the proposal that the Chair be automatically returned. The Chair must be impartial. We have a good Chair who can attend functions, cannot pose for photographs in a political basis and must be totally independent. The person who assumes this position is at a considerable disadvantage if he or she intends to stay in politics. We want people of the highest calibre occupying the Chair and I fully support the proposal that the Chair be automatically returned, as is the case in Dáil Éireann.

As I said on the Order of Business today, I will ask the Clerk to present the Members of the Seanad who were not previously Members of the Dáil or Seanad and the Members who had previously been Members of the Dáil with the last two reviews on Seanad reform so they can read over them. Senator Glynn made a valuable point that most Senators participating in the last review were selected Senators. The elected Senators, especially the 43 elected by the panels, should be representative and represented. I am not casting any aspersions on anyone as quite senior parliamentarians and very experienced people, both male and female from both sides, for whom I have the highest regard were on the group. I certainly acknowledge the great service they have given Ireland in their terms in both Houses. My former colleague, former Senator John Dardis, who was Deputy Leader of this House and with whom I worked so well down through the years, was a true gentleman of the highest standing. I value their advice. However, there was also a previous report so perhaps we will get the Clerk to give everyone two copies of those and we will have a look at them over Christmas. Perhaps then we can continue this debate, which will not conclude this evening. I know it is going to continue.

The question of the Six Counties must be addressed because we have seen the new Ireland. We must have representation from the Six Counties. As a member of the British-Irish Interparliamentary Body and the Oireachtas Joint Committee on the Implementation of the Good Friday Agreement, I assure its members and Members of this House that I know that it would be wonderful if the Six Counties were represented. Four Senators represent Ulster but they are from Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan. They represent these counties excellently but we must have representation from the Six Counties. If there is an increase in the panels and it must go to a referendum, I know the people of Ireland will overwhelmingly give their approval so that this could take place.

The Seanad Éireann of the future must be a 32-county Upper House. For that reason, we should have a review of the Seanad. Many good suggestions have been made which will be examined by the most experienced Members of the House. Everyone who is elected, irrespective of the panel he or she is elected to, is elected to bring change and enhance the legislative process in respect of bringing Bills forward and bringing everything before the House. The contribution they have made has been immense and must be acknowledged. I acknowledge it as Leader of the House. We are now looking to the 21st century to see how we can enhance it. Party politics have not been played to the same extent that they have at the present time. I understand that this is a levelling-off period. Young Members have entered the House who are enthusiastic and energetic. By the very fact of entering this House, they believe things can be changed very quickly. Coming from the world of private enterprise, the most significant change I came across was realising that getting things done can take a long time. Once Members get over that teething problem, they will make an immeasurable contribution. I look forward to Seanad reform. I congratulate the Minister, a man who takes on the challenge with gusto, on his appointment.