David Norris (Independent)

I will support the amendment to the motion. I indicated I would sign it but I am afraid it was a little too late. My problems with the motion are manifold. I refer to the word "commitment", for example. Senator O'Toole got a commitment from a previous Leader of the House, Michael Lanigan. When he asked if the commitment would be fulfilled, he was told it was not an absolute commitment so there are different kinds of commitments. They are not all musical groups. The motion is also grammatical nonsense in that it states "that as many of these agreed changes can be achieved". As many as what? Is it as many as I want? Is it as many as the Pope decides? Is it as many as the Minister wants? It does not make sense; it is not logical. However, I understand what the Government is at.

I agree with the idea of Seanad reform. That is why I tabled a motion which the Government voted down in the first couple of weeks. All the Members on the Government side trooped through the lobby to vote against exactly what it proposes tonight. However, I detect a greater degree of seriousness in the tenor of this debate. Something probably will happen but I hope it is not confined exclusively to the university seats, although I welcome the extension. However, we ought to look at the way it is being extended. I have suggested various ways to retain certain characteristics of the constituencies, but that will be up to the majority to decide.

I issue one warning. We should not make it a vast constituency of 250,000 or 500,000. That will Americanise the process. Only people with money and the incumbents will be able to go forward. It would be fine for me; I have a high profile on radio and television. If I am not being arrogant, I believe I would have a reasonably good chance of getting elected, but let us think of some young person with radical ideas. How would he or she get elected and how would he or she finance the election? If we are going to do that, we will have to provide a certain amount of finance.

The university panel has encouraged people. I would never have got elected but for it. It is 30 years since I started to campaign to get into this House. I never wanted to be a Member of the Dáil. I am one of the people who wanted to be a Member of this House. There are such people in all parties but we are a minority. Most people want to get into, or back into, the other House. I was the one who coined the phrase about this House being the intensive care ward of the Dáil. I am unrepentant about that. I have made submissions which Members should read if they are interested.

I am make no apology for the university representation. I do not agree with Senator Joe O'Toole on this. There is no need for an apology. It is not particularly elitist and if it is, what about it? There is a lot to be said for elitism and for people who have certain qualities. I salute the people who got university degrees; I think they are great.

I am not taking any lessons in democracy from the parties. I remember being in this House when people were dragooned in to vote for people for whom they were told to vote by their parties. There are a number of people on both sides who remember that. It happened in every party. There was no democracy.

In regard to this delegated university suffrage rubbish, Senator Camillus Glynn gave the lie to that when he spoke about the office in his constituency. His constituency is not Mullingar; it is the administrative panel. The way one gets proper representation is by enfranchising the people. It is a laughing stock. I remember the president of the Royal Irish Academy putting himself forward but he did not get a single vote. Somebody else, whose blushes I will spare, topped the poll. That tells one how representative and democratic it is.

In regard to university representation as opposed to the other, I am not taking back anything I said about county councillors earlier today. I saw the programme on Tuesday night.

I know there are very decent councillors such as Senator Hannigan, who is a former councillor. However, many Members of this House were caught by the tribunals with their fingers in the jam. This was because they were members of councils and this must be addressed and removed. I remember being in this House when every single named officer of this House stood for election and was rejected by the people. One of the most important of them stood for election to the Dáil and was rejected by the people, stood for the European Parliament and was rejected by the people, stood for the Seanad and was rejected by the people and was then nominated and made a Member of the Seanad. That is democracy.

Perhaps I will be told I am being inflammatory but that is the situation. If one is going to do something, one should not just target the university Senators where one gets bloody good value. One may not always like it but one gets good value out of it. One should look at the whole picture, enfranchise people and give voting rights to the ordinary members of the nominated bodies and then one will cover the whole country.