Alex White (Labour)

I thank the Minister of State and colleagues for their contributions, including those who said it was a meritorious Bill but could not find their way to vote for it. That is one of the curious experiences one has as a newly elected Member. It is a pity that when one sees merit in something, one cannot find it possible to vote for it. I do not make that as a personalised remark to anybody in the House but my party and I would support legislation brought forward by the Government in circumstances where the legislation made sense and addressed a fundamental problem. I hope the day will come when Members on the Government side will reach the same conclusion. Perhaps the thing to do is to support a proposal it fairly acknowledges has merit.

I listened carefully to the Minister of State's contribution. He said there was no need to put the scheme on a statutory footing, notwithstanding the trenchant criticism in the Court of Criminal Appeal and the Supreme Court, but especially the Court of Criminal Appeal which said we do not really have a system but an ad hoc arrangement and it needs to be put on a statutory footing in order that everybody can understand it and see it being implemented. At one stage in his contribution the Minister of State said — I thought it quite amusing — the Bill is not altogether flawed in its contents. He said one thing that troubled me and I have had an opportunity to check it. It seems the issue of which he is most critical is not all that clear. As Senator Hanafin and everybody else has said, we should have a scheme, the only issue is whether it should be put on a statutory footing. The Minister of State said there is no need to put it on a statutory footing because the Garda Commissioner is not of the belief that should be done. Senator Regan is right about that. We all take seriously the advice and guidance of the Garda Commissioner, particularly in this area. The Garda Commissioner has a role to play but we also have a role to play as legislators. It is for the legislators to determine the contents of a scheme and not, with respect, the Garda Commissioner, valuable and important as is his advice.

I turn to what the Minister of State said about sections 13 and 14. This is an example of the criticism he has put forward, which is not real criticism. It masquerades as criticism but when one studies it, the Minister of State does not bring forward any criticism. He stated:

The second serious flaw I detect in the Bill arises in sections 13 and 14 which set out circumstances and factors that would justify disclosure of information relating to a protected person, including information sufficient to identify and locate him or her. Let us be clear that these sections have the potential to set at nought the chances of encouraging individuals to enter the programme and give evidence against former comrades.

The explanatory memorandum gives a fair summary of those sections. Section 13 prohibits the disclosure of information relating to the location or a change of identity of a protectee. However, it sets out some exceptions about which the Minister of State claims to be so concerned. The prohibition does not apply to a protectee or former protectee who discloses information about himself or herself, if the disclosure does not endanger the safety of another protectee or former protectee and does not compromise the integrity of the programme. It does not apply to a person who discloses information that was disclosed to the person by a protectee or former protectee, if the disclosure does not endanger the safety of the protectee or former protectee or another protectee or former protectee and does not compromise the integrity of the programme. These are major restrictions on the circumstances where disclosure is allowed. The Minister of State gives the impression that a laissez-faire attitude is being taken and for this reason, if for no other, the Bill should be rejected. The criticism he suggests to be valid adds up to nothing.

Senator Hanafin appeared to criticise the Bill on the basis that if it became law it could be open to challenge. With all due respect to Senator Hanafin, it is extraordinary for any legislator to suggest not introducing legislation because it might be tested in the courts. What state have we arrived at that we do not have the self-confidence as legislators to introduce legislation? By all means have it scrutinised — I am quite happy for this legislation to go through the wringer in the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. Let the Department take it apart, amend it, change the DPP provision, add a——