Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)

Ba mhaith liom comhghairdeas a dhéanamh le Pháirtí an Lucht Oibre. I congratulate and commend the Labour Party on this Bill which in many ways reflects the Fine Gael position adopted as part of our manifesto before the general election.

There has been a growth in gangland violence and Senator Harris in his eloquent remarks made reference to this growth. I come devoid of any Law Library baggage. As a humble public servant who lives and works in a community, I am aware of the growing need for all of us to face up to the fact that we must take on these crime lords and we must take them out, by whatever means. Senator Harris may be correct that we need to be creative in our approach to crime and in our tackling of the issue.

This Bill seeks to encourage witnesses or those involved in crime to come forward with critical information and to give evidence. Senator White in his remarks made this point very well.

We are living in an era of intimidation of epidemic proportions. I refer to some of the issues affecting the city of Limerick and the criminal trials which have taken place there. Are we saying we will condone perjury in the courts and that those who perjure themselves will get away with it? Are we sending out a message to young people in schools that it is all right to be involved in crime and to put one's hand on the Bible in court and tell lies? This is what is happening. There is a need to have a fully resourced witness protection programme to protect innocent people and to encourage people to come forward with information and be willing to give it. We do not condone crime and illegal activities. We are not talking about law and order in a television programme or "The Godfather", but about modern day Ireland. The Labour Party Bill before the House is a serious attempt to tackle the issue of crime. I am disappointed the Minister of State has rejected the Bill, and in saying that I am not being political by any stretch of the imagination.

The courts have told us the scheme should be on a statutory basis. Why does the Minister of State not recognise this? Why can it not be put on a statutory basis and have a strong witness protection scheme which is desirable for a functioning criminal justice system? We can have all the theories and hypotheses we like, but if one goes back to the fundamentals — Senator Harris spoke about detection levels — the Garda needs information as part of its ability to solve crime. Coming back to the most fundamental point of community policing, the neighbourhood watch scheme, why can we not take it a stage further? Why can we not encourage this to counteract the perception that we are doing little or nothing to stop the intimidation of witnesses? We need to encourage people to testify and to come forward.

I agree with Senator Harris on the need for a complete revolution regarding tackling crime. How best can that be achieved? If one lives in fear of devious people one will not come forward. One will go into court, put one's hand on the Bible, tell lies and perjure oneself. We need to set up a system to encourage people to come forward.

We can quote all the figures we like for the past five months or five years, but serious criminal activity is increasing. I am not that old, but if a Garda was shot when I was growing up it was a huge story. It is still a huge story today but it has become more commonplace, which is unacceptable. Will we as legislators give in to fear and intimidation and allow drug barons and gangland bosses to control our streets? Is that what we want? If so, we may as well put up our hands, wave the white flag, surrender, go back into the trenches, put our heads in the sand and pretend everything is fine. Unfortunately, it is not. I agree with Senator Boyle that all of us as legislators have a responsibility to legislate and to put forward solutions. One way to do that is by means of the Bill before the House where we can offer protection on a statutory basis. It has worked in other countries, why can it not work here?

A fear has been expressed in some quarters that we are giving an amnesty to criminals. We are not doing that. We need partnership and co-operation. At a different level, the Bill offers an opportunity for people to come forward and give information and evidence. We desire to bring to an end the gangland crime and warfare that is taking place in many parts of society. If we want to continue a partnership in crime between the kingpins and their associates that is fine, but we have an obligation to bring forward legislation, which the Labour Party has done. I do not mean to be critical of the Garda but is it the job of the Garda Commissioner to be the legislator or is it ours? He says — if I am wrong I stand corrected — we should not have witness protection on a statutory footing yet the courts say we should. That is a question that needs to be answered because I think it is our job as legislators to put forward legislation and in tandem with that to resource and enhance the Garda at every level. Perhaps we are not doing that adequately. Irrespective of whether we like it, in many parts of the country — this is not politicisation — there is fear and intimidation. By the same token, as stated in the explanatory memorandum, it is a great stumbling block in tackling crime.

I commend the Bill to the House. No matter what its flaws it is a serious attempt to tackle this issue. We need to be honest in our approach and to stand up and be counted in regard to tackling gangland crime.