Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)

I join in welcoming the Minister to the House to introduce this important legislation on prisons. Some time ago, we had a similar debate on this issue. Apart from this legislation, other practical steps have been taken by the Minister to improve prison capacity. In addition, prison conditions are quite commendable. Members of the House who serve on the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights visited Mountjoy Prison some time back. It must be said that one could not stand over the Victorian or Dickensian conditions and inadequate facilities which persist there. Both Mountjoy and St. Patrick's Institution are entirely inadequate for young people in particular. There is a stark contrast between Mountjoy Prison and the Dóchas facility for female prisoners. Those of us on that visit came away with the strong view that Dóchas was much more conducive to the rehabilitation of prisoners, which is what we should be seeking.

In a previous debate in the House, the Minister acknowledged the view of many Members that prison should be a last resort. We have seen people being imprisoned for what are serious crimes but which are far from the organised crimes which frequently grab newspaper headlines. As a consequence of networking and the contacts they make in prison, those imprisoned for less serious crimes emerge much more equipped and inclined to become involved in a range of far more serious crimes than those for which they were initially incarcerated. It is essential, therefore, to have a justice system which will enable such people to make restitution to society for their crimes without having to serve time in jail.

We have discussed a range of alternatives in this regard. These include community service which is now part of our justice system, although it may not be well organised or used as frequently as we might like. We should avoid imprisoning people for less serious crimes while ensuring that they pay a price to society for their offences. In its own way, that can be rehabilitative so it is the right way to go. Such a system needs to be organised, however, so that the work undertaken is of real benefit to communities rather than forcing offenders to go through the motions by doing so many hours of community service. There should be a real benefit from such work. I do not know whether we could organise something through local government or an arm of Government whereby works undertaken in that regard would be of demonstrable benefit to society.

Some Members of the Opposition in the Lower House have mentioned the possibility of offenders doing service in the Defence Forces. The idea was ridiculed during a debate on RTE's "Questions and Answers" programme but it struck me that there may be some merit in it as an alternative to serving time in prison. Historically, the French foreign legion was known for its legendary feats of courage, training, commitment and dedication. Many recruits to the legion came from outside France but had committed offences there. Their participation in the foreign legion helped them to expunge their debt to society. I am not suggesting that we should establish an Irish foreign legion but there is some merit in the idea of military service for offenders. It is too easy to dismiss these alternative ideas.

On a number of occasions, the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights has discussed these matters. We have been frequently reminded by Deputies O'Connor and Hoctor that restorative justice functions well in Tallaght and north Tipperary. There is scope for extending that system throughout the country because it forces offenders to confront the effects of their crimes on victims. In doing so, they may well follow a better route in future.

Almost invariably, when sentences are suspended and the people involved later reoffend, the suspended sentences run concurrently with the subsequent sentences. That strikes me as a major anomaly. A suspended sentence is a tremendous facility afforded to one who commits a crime. If one reoffends during the term of a suspended sentence, however, I cannot see why both the suspended and subsequent sentences should not run consecutively. In that way, a person would clearly know that if he or she commits a crime subsequently, he or she will serve the suspended sentence in addition to any other sentence imposed. Consecutive sentencing should also apply to serious crimes committed by people on bail. Where crimes of a less serious nature are concerned, we should look to other ways whereby people can make restitution, including court orders restricting movement.

Some people spend time in jail for failing to meet their financial commitments. I would like to see a legal mechanism whereby, when courts determine that someone has not paid his or her debts to another person or institution, an attachment order could be made to the wages or social welfare payments of debtors. In that way, money can be recovered by those to whom it is owed, rather than sending the debtor to jail. Some debtors may consider a short jail term as a concessionary alternative to having to meet their financial commitments. We could be more innovative in our approach to such matters.

We have already debated the drugs issue on numerous occasions and it has re-emerged during this debate. A good friend of mine, who is a sensible businessman, has argued strongly that we should legalise certain drugs. I am not an expert in this area but I know the argument against doing so is that people who use soft, so-called gateway drugs can gravitate to much harder drugs, such as heroin. Across Europe, we are failing to deal effectively with the drugs issue. This applies to many crimes from organised crime, where paid assassins carry out murders, to drugs gangs involved in serious offences aside from the importation and sale of drugs. At the other end of the scale are the drug addicts involved in petty crime, which can be serious to victims, to fund their addiction. The EU should review its stance on these issues to deal with them in a more effective way. A whole new approach is required. I am gradually moving towards my friend's opinion on the issue and it should be evaluated in a thorough, professional way, although it is easy to dismiss such suggestions.

This Bill relates to the issue of prisons and I welcome it almost entirely. It is a major step forward in prison reform and the resourcing and facilities behind it will bring significant improvements. However, in conjunction with this, we must remove from the prison population all but serious criminal offenders who should be locked up for long periods. Early release should not rest solely on good behaviour. The offender should satisfy the authorities that the probability of re-offence is very low because society should be protected from hardened criminals.