Feargal Quinn (Independent)

I had not thought of that. Let us do that if the university seats will get the benefit. I am not sure who would do well out of them.

I am influenced by a meeting I had last week. I like name dropping, and this meeting was with someone who perhaps might be a future president of the United States, Rudi Giuliani. We spoke at a conference and during the question and answer session, he listed his achievements from when he was mayor of New York. He claimed one of his major achievements was that he solved the major crime problem. New York was known as the crime centre of the world. It was a dangerous place to be. After he had spent five years in office, it was cleaned up.

In my experience, New York is a different city now than it was 20 years ago when I first knew it. Mr. Giuliani takes credit for that. He stated when someone gets a ten-year sentence, it means ten years. When he spoke about the various aspects of jail, no word of rehabilitation was mentioned. I did not hear it from him. That is dangerous. He may have solved the problem in central New York. I was told afterwards that the problem went elsewhere.

When I spoke on this subject years ago, I realised we have ways to solve it. Having listened to the news during recent days, especially about the young Latvian mother killed in Swords and her lawyer who had to leave the country because he was threatened, I am frightened to think about what is happening in the country. We could have an outcry to lock up people and throw away the keys. We must take serious steps to ensure we use our prisons not only for rehabilitation but also to protect society. We must keep both those balls in the air.

Senator Cummins queried electronic devices and other details of the Bill. We should not include too much detail in a Bill such as this. Management is about getting results through other people. The wording the Minister included in the Bill is correct. It gives the person in charge, whether it is the Minister of the day with responsibility for justice or the governor of a prison, an opportunity to decide what is right in particular circumstances.

A major problem in Irish prisons is the level of inactivity. People are locked away for 16, 17 or 18 hours with nothing to do. If that is not solved, we will not be able to release people having rehabilitated them in some form. Recently, I read of 1,000 new prison places by 2010. I do not know whether it is in the Minister's speech. One's first thought is that it is a shame we need them. However, it looks as if we do.

Will the Minister comment on how well we fight against drugs? Drugs in prisons seem to be a serious and not easily solvable problem. We have alcohol counsellors. Do we have drugs counsellors and if so, how many? The link to inactivity and drugs is serious. I understand we can control the amount of alcohol entering prison and that it is far less easy to control the amount of drugs.

Mr. Giuliani spoke about ensuring the length of prison sentences mean what they say. If someone is sentenced to ten years, can we ensure he or she serve ten years, perhaps with remission for good behaviour? This Bill attempts to do so. The so-called revolving door was discussed on the radio today.

Technology such as video conferencing and electronic tagging was referred to. We do not use technology to the extent we could and should. I assume the Minister suggests new prisons and new prison places will be geared to enable us to use technology and the Bill will ensure we can do so.

Outsourcing is correct in general business terms and is regarded as a sensible means of completing what is not part of core business. Is escorting part of the core business of the Prison Service? As somebody with business experience, I am frightened at the amount of overtime being paid. If a better way exists, we should use it. I understand the Minister has arranged courthouses in prisons in order that those on remand do not need to go to the other end of the country to appear in court, accompanied by a couple of gardaí or prison officers each time. It makes good economic sense to achieve that.

Overall, I support the Bill and what the Minister wants to achieve. The Bill is clearly designed. However, it has not received the same attention I thought it would. It seems if I stop speaking, the Bill will have gone through its Second Stage. Senator Cummins is wondering whether anyone else will come in to speak. However, I will not continue to speak on that basis.

I applaud what the Minister wishes to do. I also applaud the new prisons, and not only Thornton Hall. The objectives of what the Minister wishes to achieve have a better chance of being reached with the steps being put in place. I am concerned if we are not careful, we will have an outcry against crimes, especially the vicious crimes committed in recent days and controlled and planned crimes which people order to be committed because they can. They did not happen in the past. It now appears the crimes that are taking place are not only well planned but are ordered by mafia-style gangs or other types of gangs. They are also influenced very much by the amount of illegal drugs involved and the money accruing from their sale. I support the Minister in his efforts and I hope the Bill is passed so that its objectives can be achieved.