Joe O'Toole (Independent)

I know. I wish to give the then Minister for Education some credit for her actions at that time. If she had not supported the women in question, the introduction of the Stay Safe programme would have been delayed for many years. It is worth recalling that she stood with me, against some of her senior officials, by saying she wanted the programme to be implemented. Not too many people took an interest in the programme at the time. She may well have suffered at the hands of the hierarchy at a later stage — she was certainly not thanked for the stance she had taken.

I am sure Senator Lydon will disagree with my opinion on a case that he mentioned. I refer to the case of a priest who absolutely took advantage of some young people — he violated them — on the altar of a church. He brought further hardship on his victims a fortnight later when he insisted on performing the confirmation ceremony. He walked into the church in the company of the local bishop, to whom the allegation had been reported in the previous fortnight. The bishop decided to allow the priest to perform the ceremony despite having been told about his actions. When one of the children in question tragically died less than two years later, the same priest insisted on looking after the obsequies and funeral arrangements and rites in the church, against the wishes of her parents. I cannot think of anything lower in my life.

I am also concerned about what happened to the files in that case. The matter was very well investigated by the local Garda sergeant, who was obviously appalled by what he discovered. He put together some documents on the matter and presented his report to senior officials. The senior official in the area, the local chief superintendent, insisted on receiving the files. However, they were not available to the team which produced the Ferns Report because they have not been found since. I do not know why this is the case.

The chief superintendent, who has since died, was a major figure in the Knights of St. Columbanus. What role did they play in this affair? After his retirement, the chief superintendent was awarded the papal Bene Merente medal by Pope John Paul II. Every person in Ireland who has received this medal should ask questions about how it came to be awarded to this individual. Decent people, including neighbours of mine, have been awarded the medal for their contribution to the Catholic Church and the church is entitled to do so. However, these people are in a position to ask certain questions and should do so.

A range of organisations have introduced a malaise into the Catholic Church in various places around Europe and we need to examine how it happened here. The Knights of St. Columbanus have never been very helpful to me over the past 20 years so they cannot affect me any more adversely than they will probably do now. They are connected to the Ferns affair and should tell us their view on the matter.

Senator Lydon made the valid point that the percentage of clerical abusers is low. We need programmes for parents in addition to the Stay Safe programme if we are to protect children from abuse. We also need an agreed method of investigating allegations of child sexual abuse. When I regularly dealt with such cases approximately ten years ago, I contacted all the health boards but could not find two boards which had the same approach to dealing with allegations of child sexual abuse. A significant number of health boards did not have any system for dealing with such allegations. Consequently, issues were either not dealt with or incorrectly handled and I discovered at least three cases where people were wrongly accused of abuse because of a lack of expertise in dealing with the issue.

Priests should have the right to marry and the church should recognise priests who acknowledge and act on their homosexuality. We should deal with paedophilia. Anyone working with children, including teachers and priests, should be vetted. Vetting procedures are used in Northern Ireland and in other occupations. A person who is offered a job in the Houses of the Oireachtas is vetted for security purposes. It is as important to vet a person working with children. The church should get its act together and we should recognise that the victims of abuse, regardless of their background, need our support.

We must insist that the Health Service Executive introduces a protocol for dealing with child abuse of which we are all aware. I would like to hear the Minister of State's opinion on this matter. There must be mandatory reporting of any allegation of child abuse and such an allegation must be dealt with clearly and properly. The Stay Safe programme must be introduced in every school in the country and there must be a nationwide system for vetting people who work with children. The Government should contact the Papal Nuncio and demand that the Vatican issue a view on the Ferns Report. If certain organisations, such as the Knights of St. Columbanus, have played a role in this affair, we need to hear from them.