Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)

Clearly these are extremely important sections. The situation we have in a democratic society is of vital importance. Do we have, as the Queen is alleged to have said across the water, powers at work in this country of which we know nothing, in other words, the security authorities operate, to a degree, independently of any control? I have certainly had the feeling in regard to some of the matters and security controversies that have been at issue in Northern Ireland and in Anglo-Irish relations, and perhaps this is naivety on my part, that the Government across the water does not have a full handle on all aspects to do with security.

We are talking about our State here, however, and it is very important that if necessary the Minister and the Government — obviously one is only talking about exceptionally grave situations of one kind or another — are capable of getting all the information in the possession of gardaí and that there are not reserved areas, so to speak, into which even the Minister or any other authorised officer like the Attorney General, are not permitted to inquire. That is a very important principle.

Obviously one might be concerned about whether this power could be open to abuse but I would like to think that we had developed to a stage in this country where abuse, of which the Minister gave one theoretical example in his opening statement, would be so fraught with risk that people would not entertain it. One is talking about two people — the Minister and the Secretary General of the Department. It is very important that such a power not be delegated to some middle ranking or junior officer in the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. We all understand that in most instances the Garda Síochána must have a large degree of discretion and operational freedom and not have any kind of second guessing mechanism but I do not believe that is proposed.

The one comment I would like to make is about the question of a Garda authority, in other words, the suggestion that the powers proposed to be given to the Minister effectively would be under a Garda authority. I am not convinced of that. I have had opportunities, as a member of the British-Irish Interparliamentary Body, to meet the policing authority in Northern Ireland and in many respects it is like a board of a company where all the directors are non-executive. I am not satisfied that they are an adequate substitute. I am not criticising the situation in Northern Ireland. There is a particular history, political situation and culture there. It is a perfectly valid choice and I know they operate with them in England but the Minister and the Government have a democratic legitimacy way beyond that of any appointed authority of the great and the good. Therefore, I support what is before us but it is of major importance that it be clearly stated because there has been some degree of ambiguity about this. Going back to my time as a special adviser, there would have been some doubt in my mind as to how far the power of the Minister for Justice extended. Could such Ministers in principle, if they had a valid reason to do it, know everything that they needed to know? I was not always convinced that was the case. We have had instances where that was not the case vis-À-vis the Minister of the day and the Attorney General. I support these sections.