Joe O'Toole (Independent)

Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire, agus fáiltím go mór roimh an Bhille seo. Tá an-jab oibre déanta ag an Roinn. Tá sé thar a bheith tábhachtach, agus tá sé thar am go mbeadh sé againn. Tá súil agam go n-eireoidh go mór leis an Bhille agus an institiúid amach anseo.

I want to make a number of points, one or two of which Senators might have heard me make before. I must bore them again. I agree with Senator Tuffy that it demeans the institute to seek university status and I am glad it has dropped the issue. It does not need that status, has its own fine reputation and has done an extraordinarily good job. I see it eventually taking centre stage in line with the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. Alphabetically DIT will come before MIT and will match it in every way in the future. The institute's constituent units have developed throughout the city in an extraordinarily positive and energetic manner, and I wish them well. The Dublin Institute of Technology will be superb and it is a waste of energy to raise the issue of university status although I have not heard it do so in a while. It has moved beyond that; it is better than that and does not need such status. I also speak as a university graduate but DIT graduates will also be third level graduates and should vote in Seanad elections. They have a great contribution to make.

I know that section 26 is not the Minister's idea nor is it something any Minister thinks about greatly. It appears in every Bill and annoys me very much. It disallows Members of the Oireachtas from sitting on the agency. There is no explanation for this although I would like to hear one. It is something that Parliamentary Counsel includes in every Bill. However, it is demeaning, insulting and offensive that Members of the Oireachtas are deprived in this way. It is not that any of us wish to sit on the agency, but the provision is unnecessary. If, at some stage in the future, the Minister reached a period in her political life whereby she was no longer involved in Cabinet — although I do not wish that on her — she could make a major contribution in this capacity. Former Ministers could become involved. The section is unnecessary and the Minister should remove it. We do not need it and it adds nothing to the Bill.

We recently discussed the OECD report on third level education which most of the world jumped up and down to greet and welcome with enthusiasm. It contained many good elements, but there were a few which bothered me and to which I was opposed. One of these elements comes centre stage tonight, namely, the place of the institutes of technology with regard to research and development. The case was well made in the Minister's speech about the importance of research and technology. It is clear that Ireland will not be manufacturing widgets for much longer. It is also clear that much of the research, technology and design which we will need in the future will come from institutes such as DIT and be of a high level. However, as we have moved up the food chain in terms of economic development the type of technology we developed 20 years ago is being designed equally well in other countries where people are prepared to work incredibly long hours. Those countries can continue to design at a low level. We are at a stage in our economic development where the research and development that we need to carry out must take place at doctorate level.

The OECD report stated that institutes of technology would not be able to deal with doctorates and that this would be best left to universities. There is a contradiction between that assertion and the Minister's speech, which is the point I previously tried to make. The DIT is a fine institution. The Minister said it demands close co-operation with industry to maximise technology transfers. I fully agree with that statement, although it is slightly old fashioned in terms of language. I do not like the term "technology transfer" but I understand the thinking behind it in that it is a technology, research, information and knowledge conduit and not simply a straight transfer. It goes over and back. For that to happen, at the level of which our economy has now developed, doctorate level research, design and development is required. This must happen in places such as the institutes of technology and the Minister should use her best efforts to ensure they get the resources to do so. It can be done through a straight transfer of resources, tax breaks for people who take on the onerous task of studying for a doctorate or by dealing with groups such as Science Foundation Ireland and ensuring they give the same consideration to the institutes of technology as they do to universities in this regard. This is crucial to our future development, economically and otherwise. That was one of the problems I had with the OECD report and is well illustrated tonight. I do not think the Minister will disagree with my point, which we have discussed previously.

The issue of information technology was also missing from the OECD report. It did not get any great consideration. I would like to see DIT and other institutes of technology get the opportunity to develop Internet-based learning. In her speech, the Minister used the well-fashioned term "outreach centres" and I remember them well. Outreach centres are now in people's living rooms, offices and workplaces. They do not need to gather in such places, although they may should they wish. Technology has developed; Hibernia College has managed to develop Internet-based learning for teacher education to a certain extent. Imagine what DIT could do in terms of supporting professionals and industry and in terms of what we want to see happening in regional Ireland. This is a knowledge gateway and a way in which we can give new life and energy to much trapped intellectual capacity in parts of Ireland which are far away from third level colleges. This is a way in which to release such intellectual capacity by giving people access and having a balance of attendance and Internet-based knowledge. The institutes need support and encouragement in that direction.

The institutes of technology deal with apprenticeships. I feel strongly about the university issue, as does Senator Tuffy. We have reached a stage in Irish society where some people conclude that those with degrees must be educated. As teachers, the Minister and I will find this amazing in that we know that some of the least educated people we have met have a string of degrees and letters after their names. However, the obverse of that problem is that some people think that those without degrees are questionable in terms of knowledge. Irish society has lost an entire generation of tradespeople. There are very few Brendan Behans remaining, people who could paint during the day and write at night or be carpenters during the day and attend the opera at night. Arts and literature have been directed away from people in trade and apprenticeships. I have tried unsuccessfully to raise this matter with the crafts unions over the years. I pleaded that apprenticeships be exposed to arts and literature in a way that was not stressful and did not include exams. I was referring to the sharing of an experience and growing to love something. Everybody can have an equal appreciation of arts and literature regardless of their background or the work they do, whether they are nuclear physicists or nuerosurgeons, painters or carpenters. Everybody in this chamber would agree with me. I would like to see some movement in that direction.

I will conclude with a story that may be of some use to the authorities at DIT. I was at the opening of an educational institution in a lovely greenfield setting. Speaking to the designer of this beautiful building, I pointed out that there were no paths and roadways between the buildings. I wondered how the students got from the road to the building. He replied that he would return in two months and would lay paths when he could see where the students had been walking. When DIT finalises this project it can leave the paths until last and the students can show it the shortcuts they take. In order to prevent people walking on the grass the paths can be laid where the students have walked. On that note of levity I wish the Minister well. Go n-éirí leis an mBille ag an bpointe seo.