Joanna Tuffy (Labour)

I am a solicitor and I have a vested interest in this, but I do not agree with the suggestion that solicitors would like the legislation to be delayed or that the type of conveyancing practice employed in the past has been in their favour. It is only the legislators who can delay the enactment of legislation. It is up to us to put the system right, not the people who work within it.

Solicitors make a considerable amount of money out of conveyancing, and they have done particularly well over the past few years because of the success of the property market, which lies in the amount of houses that have been built or changed hands and in the increases in property prices. However, for solicitors to be really successful as business people, they need to get as many conveyances and other transactions through their offices as quickly as possible. Therefore, it is more in solicitors' interests to have a streamlined system for the registration of title.

I very much welcome the legislation, but it does not go far enough. I do not mean to be critical, but it needs to be built on. I will be interested to see the Government amendments. It would be more satisfactory if we knew now what they will entail, as we will not have much time to consider them before we debate them in the House. I welcome any improvement to the legislation that the Minister proposes and we will also be considering our own suggestions.

When looking recently at the Land Registry website I was reminded that the registry was set up in 1892. Since then there has been many legislative measures dealing with the registration of title, but we have not got very far, particularly when it comes to the compulsory registration of title. Compulsory provision was required for three counties, and it has been in place in them for a long time. It was intended that this would be built on and extended but that has not happened. The legislation does not address that but the matter should be given priority.

The Registry of Deeds system is not a satisfactory way of managing the registration of title. We know that only the document is registered. It is not confirmed that a person has the title to the property, unlike the registration of title system. It should be our ultimate aim to rectify that. The Law Reform Commission recommends the legislation and effectively welcomes the steps taken by the Minister, but it has suggested that we ultimately need to make the Registry of Deeds system redundant. We have a long way to go in that regard.

I will turn to how the legislation deals with the Land Registry. The Law Reform Commission has issued a consultation paper on conveyancing. At page 28, it recommends that what is termed a"tidying-up measure" needs to be taken. In fact, a great deal needs to be done to improve the system. There are gaps, and the legislation contains less detail than it might about procedures, which are governed more by rules. Section 26 of the Bill provides that the rules "may" be published by the relevant committee, but I would have thought they would have to be published. A transitional arrangement is to be put in place, whereby the present rules apply until the new rules are drawn up. Those rules should be given priority, and I hope that they will be comprehensive in improving the conveyancing system.

Like many solicitors, I find the staff who work at the Registry of Deeds very helpful, and the building is a nice place to visit, with a nice atmosphere. However, the procedure of registering deeds is still cumbersome and the building is inaccessible. People might have trouble if something has gone wrong. That makes the process even more cumbersome. As Senator Norris said, the whole procedure of conveyancing using the Registry of Deeds system, as opposed to the Land Registry system, is cumbersome and unsatisfactory. All the deeds need to be gone through for each transaction, there is much more scope for error, the process is more time consuming and searches take longer and are more costly. We need to move more towards the Land Registry and the registration of title system.

We can also make improvements to the procedures for the Registry of Deeds. One of the Law Reform Commission's recommendations that should be prioritised when the rules are drawn up is set out on page 163 of the booklet to which I have referred.

It suggests having a statutory form of the necessary information for registration purposes, which could comprise the first page of deeds. It further suggests that the complications over executions of memorials and witnessing should be removed so that simplifications recommended for execution of deeds should also apply to memorials. These suggestions should receive priority in any new rules.

The Land Registry has come a long way in making its forms more accessible and user-friendly. Senator Quinn said that land registration had become like other transactions but I do not think that matters have progressed that far. One is limited in what one can do electronically with regard to the Land Registry. However, it has put much work into its very good website. One can fill out form 17 online and get one's dealing number to send to the registry with one's deeds. Such measures are helpful. The website recently won the best central e-government category in the Irish e-government awards, which was well-deserved.

I have not been working very long as a solicitor and my work is now very limited. I am mainly winding up matters and finishing registration. However, the Land Registry offices are a much nicer place to visit than in the past in that there are fewer queues and the staff can better deal with people. The way in which form 17 is presented means that one only needs to tick the boxes and it is very difficult to make a mistake. The Land Registry's corporate image has also improved.

However, there is still much to be done. One must still physically send title deeds to the Land Registry. One can do so by post although I prefer to go into the office because then I know it will arrive on the day and I can get a dealing number there and then. We must aim for the type of scenario envisaged by Senator Quinn. Ultimately one should be able to transfer property and send one's deed to the Land Registry electronically.

The investment the Minister has made with regard to digital mapping is very welcome. Currently, it takes a long time to get transactions registered and there are often delays in terms of mapping. Hopefully the digital mapping initiative will improve matters. South Dublin County Council made its services available electronically although this initially seemed difficult. It put its entire planning application system on-line so that one can look up every plan, map and specification. The council achieved this within a very short period of time. It was not available when I became a councillor in 1999 but now everything is on-line. Before this, one had to go to the planning counter in South Dublin County Council in order to get maps, the office was only open during certain hours and the whole process took time. The service is now available on the Internet. This type of initiative is needed with regard to the Land Registry in that one should be able to do everything on-line. It would improve our system of conveyancing and put an end to complaints regarding delays and searches and so forth.

The main gap in the legislation relates to the encouragement of first registration. As a solicitor I got the hang of doing such registrations and carried out a number of them. Whenever I receive registration of deeds and title I always look to see whether it is possible to register it with the Land Registry. I do my best because it makes it easier for the next solicitor and I get a certain satisfaction from the job. I do not necessarily gain from doing this, but the next solicitor does. I like the idea that the title is tidied up, registered with the Land Registry and is very clear and certain.

Other solicitors find the system of first registration very daunting and therefore do not use it. They will go to the Registry of Deeds instead, even though first registration is cheaper. The Land Registry could take measures in this regard. Searches can be daunting and if one gets them wrong, one must start all over again. Verified searches are also required which are not required for other transactions and are costly and cumbersome. The Land Registry must examine what it requires with regard to first registration. It could intervene in terms of the required searches to make it easier for solicitors. Why does it need verified searches? Surely, the Land Registry could check them rather than requiring the solicitor to get a verified search. Staff should be designated to promote the first registration system and assist people in getting through it. This will help increase the number of titles registered.

The compulsory registration system should be extended, and we will probably suggest this as an amendment. I have my doubts in that it might be too much to ask that all land in the State be compulsorily registered. Forcing the issue will make people register but will require the help of solicitors. The Registry of Deeds and the Land Registry should also consider free first registration.

The Land Registry system is more expensive than the Registry of Deeds system. If they integrate, the two bodies should consider balancing their fees to make it more attractive to register with the Land Registry.

I query the change with regard to church lands which allows them to be non-compliant with compulsory registration. I realise there are good reasons for this provision which was recommended by the Law Reform Commission. However, this is a move backwards and is not generally desirable.

Senator Dardis spoke of time limits with regard to the stamping of deeds and the penalties incurred if the deed is not stamped within a month. Solicitors will probably not want me to agree with this. One month is probably too short a period within which to stamp a deed. However, we must look at the issue of time limits with regard to land registration. There should be a time limit, and I am as much at fault as any other solicitor in terms of delays in registering. It would be good to have a requirement to register within a certain time. The period should be a couple of years instead of a couple of months. As it stands, some titles are not registered for ten years or more. Some are not registered at all until someone discovers the fact. A time limit should be considered but it should be a reasonable one.