Kathleen O'Meara (Labour)

This is an interesting debate on a very important point. Unlike Senator Minihan, I have no knowledge of the Defence Forces and I listened with great respect to what he said.

We are appointing an ombudsman because there are concerns that one is needed. An ombudsman has been requested. We are responding to a clearly stated need from within the Defence Forces themselves. That is a fact. We did not come up with the idea here. It has come from the organisations themselves. The need for an ombudsman has been clearly stated.

By nature, the ombudsman would be independent in his or her functions. An independent office is required and that is what we are putting in place. However, we are limiting its operation which may be for the best, given what Senator Minihan said, that we should not civilianise the military. I accept that point. From time to time, however, there may be a public interest override on certain matters. We need the military to operate as a military force, to be disciplined, effective and ready for whatever action it is required to take in whatever fora and countries the Government decides it should operate.

The amendment relates to a public interest override. I agree its wording may not be perfect. In light of what Senator Maurice Hayes said, I urge the Minister to consider the need for a public interest override in the legislation. Will he come back to us on Report Stage with an amendment to insert a public interest override power for the ombudsman? I accept it would only be used in very limited circumstances. It is possible that something could emerge from what clearly is a closed environment, and perhaps by its nature it needs to be so, that an individual or groups within the Defence Forces feel for whatever reason cannot be the subject of a complaint. It is not enough that a matter is investigated inside the military, although that is important and essential. If it is a matter of major public concern people should know that an official outside the Defence Forces is examining the matter and reporting on it in a public manner. This legislation gives us the framework to do that. I ask the Minister to give serious consideration to giving the ombudsman the power of initiative in the public interest, should the need arise.