John Minihan (Progressive Democrats)

Senator Brian Hayes should allow me to speak. I am genuinely trying to contribute to the debate by bringing on board my 21 years of experience in the Army which I believe is relevant to the discussion.

Things take place in military training that would be in breach of all manner of legislation if they were to take place in civilian training. I would not like to have an ombudsman sitting at home watching a video of a military training exercise in the Glen of Imaal. He would not be happy that the poor soldiers are being shouted at or how they are bullied and harassed. The reality is that one is dealing with people who are commanding lethal forces, not a group of office managers or bank managers. An officer may have to shout and roar at some fellow who has frozen under fire because he wants him to move, either to save his life or the lives of those in the section, platoon, brigade or battalion under his command. That is the way it operates.

People are trained in such a manner that they will react to orders and to a particular tone. We cannot have debates and discussions as to whether we should go left, right or up the middle when we are under fire. The commander makes the decision. I would fear for this practice if the military structure is over-civilianised. It is most definitely not to allow the military to hide everything nor to allow the hierarchical command cover up everything. In addition to civil law we have military police, military law and the Defence Act, and now we will have ombudsman legislation, which I welcome.

At the end of his contribution, Senator Maurice Hayes asked the Minister to try to address this matter by another means. That is the way to go. The amendment before us would be the wrong way.