David Norris (Independent)

I am grateful to my colleague, Senator O'Toole, for sharing his time. The Bill the Minister is introducing is, in effect, an amendment to an earlier Bill. He is considering two issues, namely, the extension of the exclusion time for young people from 9 p.m. to 10 p.m. and the re-definition of the bar area so that functions can be held for young people in an alcohol-free area even though it may technically be part of a licensed premises. Few of us can have much difficulty with that. When the original Bill was going through the Houses, I recall that the time mentioned was 8 p.m, which was extended in this House to 9 p.m. The fact that the Minister accepted an amendment from Deputy Jim O'Keeffe in the Lower House, and is now extending the time to 10 p.m, shows his open-mindedness. That is a very healthy example of participatory democracy.

It would be ludicrous if the effect of the Bill were to prevent teenagers dancing in an alcohol-free environment, which is not what either House of the Oireachtas intended. The Garda moved very quickly into this area and indicated to a number of sporting venues, including Old Wesley rugby club in Donnybrook, to which I belonged for a while and which holds regular dances, that prosecutions could be initiated against it if, for example, it ran a disco to celebrate the end of the leaving certificate examination. This was despite the bar being locked and no alcohol being available. That looks like nit-picking and was not the intention of the Oireachtas.

This debate has highlighted the need for appropriate venues for young people. I live in Dublin's north inner city, which remains quite a troubled area with regard to unemployment, drugs and alcohol abuse, etc. One of the best developments in the area was the opening of a playground in Gardiner Street. It is really terrific. The community now has a facility which gets kids, young people and the young immigrant population off the streets and playing together.

It is a reproach to this country that in so many towns, the only places available for social functions are pubs. With the greatest respect to my friend, Senator Bohan, and the decent publicans, a pub is not an entirely appropriate environment for young people. There is the reek of drink, glasses about the place and advertisements for booze-ups on the wall. Among the recommendations of the strategic task force on alcohol are the regulation of availability and control of the promotion of alcohol. There is an insidious promotion of alcohol in the pub environment. I have never thought it a proper environment for children. I accept that when people are on holidays in hotels it may be a little tough to separate out people under 18 from their parents, and we are right to consider that.

A couple of weeks ago I listened to a programme on traditional Irish music. Those involved were bellyaching about the situation. They were talking about "our Irish culture", which seemed to be confined to drinking, and suggesting that our music could only be heard in pubs. We should ask whether the core of our culture is merely drinking. If it is, we are in trouble.

Other countries can cope with the situation. Luckily and happily, I spend part of my time in Cyprus. There are no bars there, except in places like Ayia Napa and Limassol, and indeed there are very few in Limassol. One can go to the kahvehane, the village coffee houses. No one thinks any less of one if one has a coffee, which is what most people have. One can have a beer, a zivania or a brandy, but there is no pressure to drink all the time. We must address this issue and be prepared to spend money on providing youth clubs, sports centres and recreation centres as an alternative, so people are not channelled into thinking that the most natural and most Irish idea in the world is to drink.

Senator O'Toole also raised the question of licensing. It is not directly referred to in the Bill but I cannot resist the opportunity to refer to it. I have spoken at length about superpubs and the licensing laws. It is important, for example, that the Garda be proactive. It seems to me, although I am ready to be corrected, that pub licences are more or less automatically renewed and that pubs are investigated only if there is a complaint. That is not good enough. There are a number of lousy pubs within a cuckoo's spit of my house. I could name them, but would not abuse the privilege of this House — at least not yet. There should be a pub checklist with regard to health and safety. This would also protect decent publicans. Drugs are openly on sale in some pubs and in others very dangerous physical fights take place, sometimes involving weapons. It is not right that the proprietors of those pubs should automatically have their licences renewed. Quite often, people are reluctant to make complaints because those complained about are so dangerous. The Garda should be asked whether a clean bill of health can be given to a pub. It is fairer on judges because they sometimes give licences to venues that should not have them.

We should get rid of the hypocrisy. What is meant by "special" extensions and "special" licences? I know of pubs which get 30 of these per month, which is daft. Either the extension is "special" or it is not. We must consider this realistically and try to control the situation.

I am not anti-drink. I enjoy a drink and enjoy getting slightly tight on appropriate occasions, particularly with a good meal in the mountains of Cyprus, which is heaven. I enjoy wine and make no apologies for it. However, I behave reasonably and decently and do not drive my car when drinking.