Joe O'Toole (Independent)

I make that point because pubs should be required to have such alternatives available. The profit on them is high and many smart publicans can see that. It should be as easy to get a cappuccino in a public house as a pint of stout. Those other options should be available and we must move onto them to get things going. I agree with the point that the Minister has made many times that the "superpub" is not a pub at all. Smaller pubs in local areas are far more attractive. Recently, more and more village nuclei are being developed in housing estates on the outskirts of Dublin. These natural developments allow local people to watch local kids drinking in local areas, which has its own built-in restraints. That is how it worked in the old days. Without cars, people could not travel very far, and therefore went to the local pub. Everyone could watch them drinking there, even if they pretended not to, so there was a community restraint or inhibition. We now miss that.

Members of both Houses need to be better educated. I do not purport to know a lot about this subject, despite the substantial portion of my life spent in public houses, which I will continue to frequent. We need to inform ourselves better regarding the attitudes taken by young people. The issue should not simply be about making it more difficult to get drink by restricting opening hours and outlets. Those methods must go hand in hand with a sensible approach to demand. We must educate people so that they will know there is more to life than drink, although drink can be part of life. That balance must be achieved. We should not go over the top on either side. It should not come down to the cause of zealots being opposed to the cause of the vintners. The answer lies somewhere in between.

The vintners' lobby is entitled to make a strong case. I have no objection to that, but the vintners got the smoking issue all wrong. Had they moved properly on that issue, they could have got a compromise from Government at the time. They did not do so and now face difficulties. The same is true of this Bill. The vintners should be, and in many cases are, supportive. On many occasions I have heard Senator Bohan make the case for responsible drinking.

The opening of public buildings which are not designed primarily for alcohol consumption should be considered by the Government. Regarding demand, we must ensure that a fun time can be had without alcohol and that people understand that. We must educate people so they understand they do not need to drink all the time, that there is nothing wrong with having a few drinks, but that one should always be in control. In a far distant age, when I was a young man, it was considered to be a mark of inferiority if one could not hold one's drink. In the current climate it seems it is a mark of inferiority if one does not get so drunk that one falls about the place. We must find our solution within those two positions.