Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Fahey, and wish him every success in his new role at the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. I am glad to have the opportunity to make some points on Seanad reform. I made a submission on the issue and congratulate the sub-committee of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges which presided over the process. It went through a sizeable number of submissions and produced a very good report with which I almost fully agree.

Two problems are highlighted in the report, namely, that the Seanad has no distinctive role in the Irish political system and that its arcane and outdated system of nomination and election diminishes Senators' public legitimacy. I do not fully agree with these conclusions and feel the problems should be redefined. I accept there is a public legitimacy issue. Despite this being perhaps the 12th instance of Seanad reform, nothing has happened. Therefore, I question whether the reform process has legitimacy and whether we will achieve something on this occasion following hundreds of submissions from many quarters. I hope we do.

When we focused on the issue of public legitimacy in the past, we focused completely on the electoral system. I find this offensive. Is it to suggest that we have no public legitimacy because the electoral system for the Seanad produces not good but substandard representatives? This is not the case. While I accept there is a view that universal franchise may be the way to go for the future, it does not need to happen. The system whereby 43 Members are directly elected by county councillors, borough councillors and outgoing Oireachtas Members is a good one which has served us well.

The list system, as proposed, would be completely undemocractic. A Member of the House said privately to me that Members voting for this would feel like turkeys voting for Christmas, as I would. Who would draw up the list? I agree with Senator O'Toole that the University Panel should be extended to include all third level graduates. This may open an argument for all tradespeople, for example, to have representation in the House because they have qualifications and careers. Should this also be considered?

When considering public legitimacy, the focus should not be on the electoral system. The process can be tweaked if necessary. The Taoiseach's 11 nominations are a good idea and I support using some of the nominations to include representaion for the North of Ireland, emigrants and other sectors. However, to have real public legitimacy the process needs to be relevant to the people. We have universal franchise in the context of the European elections but if the local elections were not held on the same day the turnout would be poor. The difficulty still exists that the public does not engage with Europe despite voting for representatives. Why, therefore, do we think that universal franchise will give Members more credibility with the public?

We need to make the Seanad more relevant to the people and can do this with the kind of functional reforms proposed. We should have a greater role regarding public scrutiny, as Senator O'Toole stated, and European legislation. If the House considered legislation at draft and proposal stage, it would give legitimacy not only to the European Parliament but would enhance our position in the public eye. It might also get a few members of the media to sit in the Seanad's press gallery. I have been a Member of the House for two years but only saw journalists in the gallery on one occasion, when it was full for the debate on freedom of information, which was of great interest to the media. Other than that, the Seanad gets very poor coverage. If we debated European legislation at draft stage, it would be very beneficial to the House. All too often motorway construction is stopped because of legislation emanating directly from Europe. One example of this was when a variety of snail was found that could not exist anywhere else on the planet. Such legislation should be scrutinised through the committee system. However, when it comes to EU scrutiny in the committees, what happens is that huge documents arrive on the morning of the meeting and although it is agreed that they should be further scrutinised, they are adopted. We, in this House, could carry out that function. It would be very meaningful and would give us public legitimacy. The media would have no choice but to cover it and, in turn, the public would see exactly what is going on here.

If the Seanad was to receive adequate coverage in the media — I do not say this from an egotistical standpoint — and the public could see what goes on here, it would give the House more legitimacy. People would see the level of debate and scrutiny not only of legislation, but many other issues such as alcohol abuse and could see how legislation is changed as a result of good debate on all sides of the House.

It would also be a good development if the Cathaoirleach were elected automatically, as is the Ceann Comhairle in the other House. The number of nominating bodies should be reduced because there is much duplication with particular sectors having multiple bodies with multiple nominations. A scenario that develops at elections, which is not particularly fair, relates to inside and outside panels where somebody may have a certain number of votes but because a particular sub-panel is already full, a candidate with half the vote may take the seat. That is not addressed. I am not sure that is equitable and it should be examined.

I would be opposed to the introduction of a list system as it is undemocratic. I am fully in favour of the maintenance of the local authority franchise because it has served us well in the past. In the search for enhanced public legitimacy, the electoral system is not where the focus should be. It should be on the functions. Engaging in debate on public policy and EU affairs, particularly EU legislation, would greatly enhance our position.