Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)

I welcome the Minister and thank him for staying to hear the contributions of all colleagues. We appreciate him staying rather than making his speech and running out again.

When I studied political sociology, the basis of the rational legal system of government was the notion that the State exists because the people want it to exist. The very first principle the State must deliver on is security. I am conscious of that, as is the Minister. It is vitally important that people feel safe in their homes and communities and that they feel a connection with a civilian police force to ensure that when crimes occur, those responsible are brought to justice. Public support for the Garda is absolutely essential but in recent years that has been eroded somewhat by events such as the Morris tribunal and other negative commentary on the Garda. As legislators we must respond to that erosion.

I respect members of the Garda. They put their lives on the line day in, day out, for our liberty and to ensure the laws of the State are enforced. We should not forget the gardaí who have been murdered as a result of paramilitary activity since the foundation of the State. We should never forget those people who gave their lives for this country. We must also recognise the huge commitment of the family members of gardaí.

It is also important to recognise that this is largely an unarmed force. I am not suggesting we change the policy in that regard but we need to be aware that we are sending young men and women on very dangerous tasks to apprehend criminals and frequently they come under fire. The incident which occurred recently outside Mr. Chawke's pub is a case in point. Two unarmed members of the force ran to apprehend suspects at the crime scene despite shots being fired over their heads. We must address this issue and ensure adequate protection is given to members of the force in those circumstances because they are putting their lives on the line.

One of the great advantages of the Garda Síochána, unlike other EU examples, is that it is based in the community and is regarded as an essential part of it, whereas in places such as Italy, France and Germany, the forces are seen as an extension or arm of the state. It is important the Garda Síochána keeps the public support it has so jealously guarded and protected since the foundation of the State, while at the same time adapting to the new situation.

One does not need to be Archimedes to realise there is a problem with a certain erosion of public support in recent years, given the events about which others have spoken. There is a real problem when it comes to bad attitudes between young people and the Garda, which works both ways, and it must be addressed in the context of Garda reform. We must update the performance of the force and make it more accountable. In that regard, I welcome the Bill's proposals for the ombudsman.

The people we select to go on the board of the ombudsman will be able to distinguish between genuine complaints and frivolous ones made in the heat of the moment. However, it is important the board has powers of discovery and the full co-operation of the force in respect of complaints which are to be investigated and may lead to charges coming before the courts.

I also welcome the sections dealing with the new local committees which are to be established. It is very important that the police are accountable locally and are seen and heard locally. I defend the role of local authorities in this regard. We have developed a good system of local government where the police, working in tandem with local authorities and local politicians in a public forum, can address the issues about which people talk to us on a regular basis. While it is important there is an opportunity for these meetings to be held in private, if it is the wish of the committee, the vast majority of meetings should be held in public and reported by the press so that people can see a follow-through on issues.

Simple issues are brought to my attention on a regular basis such as the attitude of the police when incidents are recorded and the telephone manner of gardaí. It is important that when a person telephones a Garda station, he or she receives a good hearing and is not fobbed off or left on hold for ten minutes waiting for a response. We need to see those kinds of efficiency improvements in the force and they will flow from some of the measures proposed in the Bill.

Although it is outside the scope of the Bill, I am glad of the opportunity to address the issue of recruitment while the Minister is here. The problem in this regard in Northern Ireland was that not enough members of the Roman Catholic Nationalist community joined the RUC, which led to a complete undermining of the force because it was not seen to be of all the community. The same argument applies to some parts of this city, Cork and Limerick, where there are well-known areas of disadvantage in which there is a complete disconnection between the police and those communities. These communities are not massive in number by comparison to the total population but they are well-known such as, for example, the CODAN areas.

The Minister has an opportunity to have the Garda go into those communities and institute an active policy of recruitment within them. Part of my constituency is an area of 10,000 local authority, low cost and tenancy housing lumped together, from which I suspect not one person has become a member of the force in recent years. This is astonishing. If one suggested that not one person from a comparable-sized town such as Navan joined the force, one would be laughed out of court. However, there are parts of this city from which no recruits are coming because of the bad attitude to which I referred. There is a bad attitude in the community which is equal and comparable to the bad attitude within the police. However, because of the tension between the community and the police, they are not getting the recruits.

Many young men and women who might like to join the force from these communities might feel they would be hounded out and would not receive public support. I recently met a woman whose son is a member of the force and who is being hounded out of her house as a result. He does not live in the local community but she is being victimised simply because she is the mother of a member of the force.

We must have a radical policy of recruitment. Although I do not like using words such as "targets" or "quotas", we need to go into those communities and recruit young men and women to the force who will live in those communities. The best protection one ever has is to know that a member of the force lives up the road or across the street. Where I live, in a housing estate of 1,700 houses, I know of at least 30 members of the force who live locally. That adds to the sense of protection and comfort people feel locally, despite the fact that these people may be off duty.

It is unhealthy that in large urban areas, not just council estates, there is no physical presence of the force on the streets because no one lives there or comes from the community. We need to radically increase the number of recruits coming from these areas. I understand a parliamentary question was tabled to the Minister asking whether he could ascertain the number of recruits coming from these well-described CODAN areas of Dublin city and county. In his reply, the Minister stated he did not have the capacity to do that. I ask the Minister to raise this issue with the Garda Commissioner because we need a radical policy of recruitment in these areas. It is the biggest single step which could be taken to improve confidence in the force and help it understand the kinds of sub-cultures which exist in some of these communities.

Sections 52 to 55, inclusive, deal with the controversial issue of offences in regard to the disclosure of information. I fully accept that if a member of the force touts information to journalists for his or her own personal gain, it is wrong and action should be taken to deal with it. Are we putting this provision in place for the Army? I suspect not. We are not putting this provision in place for existing civil servants, who are obligated under the Official Secrets Act in the same manner as members of the force, nor are we putting it in place in respect of the Minister's own press office. God help us and protect us from a Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform who gives information to crime journalists. Are we sure it has never happened? Are there no embedded journalists to whom the Minister speaks? What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

If this provision is being put in place for members of the force, let us be consistent — let it have the same jurisdiction in respect of the Minister's office, his press office, his Department, members of the Army and everyone else. Let us have the same principles apply. A great deal of bluff and bluster has been spoken on this matter, although I do not refer to the Minister. Allegedly, many of the Minister's predecessors gave information to certain journalists who then wrote stories with those Ministers' slants. It was not uncommon for Ministers of Justice to give information so that the Government is tipped off. If we are asking members of the force to be obliged to perform their new functions under sections 52 to 55 inclusive, let us have the same consistency for every other person who is responsible for security in the State, from the Minister down.

We hopefully will spend a great deal of time on Committee Stage of this Bill. There are many welcome provisions in it and I know the Minister will take seriously the points raised in the debate.