Don Lydon (Fianna Fail)

I welcome the Minister to the House. While Senator Kett said the Minister is appearing here often, he meant it as a compliment not a complaint.

I welcome the Bill, in which two main objectives are addressed. The first objective concerns the management of the Garda Síochána and the second concerns the issue of complaints and the restoration of public confidence, which has not been lost as much as is suggested. The Garda Síochána is a large organisation and, like any other, whether the Army, Judiciary, a church of any denomination, political party or trades union, it is bound to contain a few bad apples at all times. When members of an organisation are attacked, the organisation tends to close ranks and it is at that stage that public confidence is lost. An "us and them" attitude develops, a natural phenomenon in any organisation, and this is where difficulties arise because the organisation tends to defend the indefensible.

The Garda Síochána has been in existence for 80 years. We should remember the many members of the force who gave their lives in terrible situations. Although the force is unarmed, its members must often tackle thugs dealing in drugs, trying to free Ireland and so on, and must tackle armed people who shoot at them for no reason. They are faced with appalling situations and we must compliment the Garda Síochána on the bravery of so many of its members over the years. In general, it is a very good force.

There is now an armed response unit, a sad but necessary development due to changing times. It is all the more important at this time that public confidence in the Garda is restored. It is easy to criticise gardaí when one is pulled up for speeding or a similar offence. However, when one's house is broken into and gardaí appear in minutes, one forgets that they are the same gardaí who may have held one up previously. It is often forgotten that the duty of the Garda Síochána is to uphold the law. They are, after all, guardians of the peace. We make the laws while they simply uphold them, and they often come in for unfair criticism in this regard.

The Minister mentioned the Garda intelligence services, which are often forgotten, but the Bill deals with that aspect of policing adequately.

It is absolutely essential to maintain the ministerial directive to the Commissioner because overall control must always be vested in the democratically elected Government and the Minister who is part of that Government. It is the same regarding control of the Army. We should remember that this country, apart from a bout of "blue flu", has never had a mutiny in either the Army or the police. This is a democracy and that should not happen, but there are many democracies where such things happen. It has not happened here because of the calibre of the forces and the way successive Governments have handled them. It has been a delicate balance at times, but it has worked.

I urge caution with the joint policy committees. It is not that it is not a good idea, because it is great when the police work with local authorities, but I would not like to see an equal power base developing where the local authority or another body would have the same powers as the police force. I have great experience of the police in my local authority area, Stillorgan, through both community policing and gardaí working as juvenile liaison officers. The effect of having one garda walk around an area is phenomenal. People feel safe and there is a sense of well-being in the community. The Garda can do a great service in that way.

Caution should be exercised with regard to volunteers. The Minister mentioned special constables in the UK and there are some special constables in Ireland also, patrolling Dublin Castle and St. Stephen's Green. I am not sure about these volunteer members as there is a proliferation of security forces in the country, with guards wearing helmets and padded gear, and some carrying batons. They are becoming more and more indistinguishable from the police, but policing is a job for policemen. Most gardaí know how to do the job efficiently. They know whether to give a person the odd thump or to guide him along gently. A person might not say that, but they should.

If we do not have enough police, rather than having volunteers, we should hire more gardaí and train them properly. People can learn to respect a force but if there is more than one force they will ask if volunteers have the same authority as policemen and so on. We should not have a diluted Garda Síochána alongside the real force. That is very important.

Yesterday there were three gardaí on the N11 dual carriageway at Stillorgan, trying to catch someone doing 45 mph in a 40 mph zone, even though the Minister for Transport said people should be able to drive at 60 mph on that road anyway. Surely there is a better way to use Garda manpower.

The ombudsman idea is a very good one. The old adage nemo judex in causa sua applies to the gardaí as much as anyone else. However, the Minister also mentioned designated officers who will have the same powers and immunities as the gardaí. Are those the ombudsmen? How many such officers will operate? How will they be recruited and trained? Are they like private detectives? The Minister should explain whether they will operate for the extent of a particular investigation or if they will be permanent officers. Will they be in a police station for the duration of a particular case? How will the Minister know they are capable of the job they are employed to do?

Also, the Minister has brought in a six-month limit on cases but evidence often arises years after a crime is committed. Will there be any redress or will the limit stay at six months? I am sure the Minister has thought this out and will address the point. Judicial oversight is also a good idea. It is essential to have someone looking over everything.

I have a particular interest in the Bill because, like Senator O'Toole, my father was a policeman. My grandfather was a policeman, as is my cousin. Another cousin is married to a policeman, I mix with policemen and one of my best friends is a policeman. I know a lot about the police and I can relay the frustration some of them feel when a crime does not stick. They apprehend someone, investigate and prosecute. Someone goes to jail, but he or she gets out again. There is a revolving door operating and gardaí feel there is no end to it. Senator Mooney raised another issue on which I have some knowledge, the matter of people from the country coming to Dublin for redress they would not get in their own jurisdictions.

Young gardaí can become very frustrated; they get horrible abuse at times, with people in flats throwing bricks at them and their cars being rammed. The public often does not realise the dangers those people put themselves in night after night. I dealt with a court case recently in which a female garda tried to help a man get his car keys. He thought she was trying to steal the car and he beat the living daylights out of her. That was not even mentioned in the newspapers but her jaw was swollen for months. We owe these people a tremendous debt of gratitude.

The Minister made a very important point about secret societies. The IRA is a secret society and I cannot believe any policeman would join it. The masons are also a secret society, no matter what they say. There is a large number of masons in Ireland — there are approximately 50,000 in the North and 20,000 in the South. If anyone reads a book called The Brotherhood they will see the effect the masons have on the police and Judiciary in England, where nearly all police officers and most judges are masons. I do not know if that is wrong or right. I do not know if they do any wrong but there must be some element of "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours".

This is a very good Bill. It is a new charter for the Garda and the Minister has done a very good job. He has reached a balance. In fencing there was a lesson that a sword is like a bird. If one holds it too tight, one chokes it but if one holds it too loosely, it flies away. It can be easy to choke an organisation like the Garda so much that its members cannot break the law a little. That may be a strange thing to say but they must have a little leeway. If they catch a young man breaking into a house they must be able to grab him by the scruff of the neck and bring him to his parents. His human rights might be violated, but he will not break into a house again. At the same time, one cannot allow that kind of behaviour to develop as breaches of the disciplinary code can slip in.

The Minister has managed to balance this well and his intentions are very good. The Bill is a good one and will be welcomed by the Garda, which is the most important thing. I congratulate the Minister on the Bill.