Maurice Hayes (Independent)

I too welcome the Minister and thank him for his kind remarks about my involvement with policing matters in the past. I join with Senator Cummins, and I am sure other Senators who have spoken, in paying tribute to the Garda Síochána and in underlining the debt that society owes to those who are willing to provide this service and put their lives on the line. Since its establishment, the record of the Garda Síochána has been one of which this country can be entirely proud. It is fitting that we pay tribute to that record. It is proper that is the spirit in which we and they discuss the provisions of a Bill such as this. We are all trying to make policing better and to help structures which were devised for different times and different social conditions to be revised and fine tuned for a new circumstance and a new century. I pay tribute to the Minister for bringing this Bill forward and for the assiduity with which he tackled this task and all other aspects of policing since coming to office.

I welcome and support the Bill. Any remarks I make are intended to be constructive rather than critical or otherwise. As the Minister said there are many issues that can be dealt with on Committee Stage. In all of this it is important to speak about policing rather than police. There is an unfortunate tendency in these debates to focus on police men and women and crime in the same way as debates on the health service tend to be about hospitals and bricks and mortar and not about health. I see parallels between the two issues. Crime and anti-social behaviour are societal problems and fall to be dealt with by society as a whole. We do ourselves, and certainly the police, a grave disservice by lumbering the whole responsibility for that on them. The police are the professionals in this field. They are the people who help the rest of society to muster the physical and financial resources, but also those of courage and stamina, to deal with these issues. That is why I am so glad to see a couple of the Minister's proposals, particularly the relationships with local authorities and the local policing bodies. Those are vitally important. It is important to make these bodies realise that they too have an important role to play.

The Minister would do more to reassure the elderly that they are safe in their homes at night by keeping the street lights on all night than by having policemen or police cars driving up and down the road. He might do more to keep children out of trouble by putting more money into youth clubs. He might do more to cut down on drinking by staggering pub hours. Although that is not the purpose of the Bill, the crucial role of a policing service is the prevention of crime and the mobilisation of the resources of the community to deal with it.

I was disappointed but not surprised not to see a reference to a police authority. I have no reason whatsoever to be concerned about political control of the Garda. That does not exist so I am totally relaxed about that. In terms of general legitimacy and acceptability in terms of making the public aware the police are there, there is much to be said for a police authority. Certainly, in terms of co-operation with the police, North and South, the Minister will remember that under the Sunningdale Agreement there was a presumption that there would be two policing boards rather than one. On first reading the Bill, I was worried that the Minister retained powers of direction on any policy matter. I am fully reassured by the terms in which he has described the possible use of that power and the degree to which it is hedged around by the need to lay the direction before the Houses of the Oireachtas.

I welcome also the provision of the power to have a police reserve. People worry about this and that. There are good people who want to make a public contribution, perhaps not on a full-time basis, by providing a role, particularly in the field of crime prevention, reassurance to the elderly and others and in preventing children from getting out of hand. They need some basic powers and that issue needs to be thought through a little more.

We want to see more police on the streets. The question is at what stage do we reach saturation point. One can continue to demand more and more. There is much to be done and the Minister is doing it by way of civilianisation of jobs and privatisation. That is important. Most police forces see a necessity for professional police people doing jobs which could be done equally well by others, thus releasing manpower and womanpower.

I welcome the proposals for an ombudsman, which is important. In these days there is no profession which goes unquestioned. The same is true of policing. I see the role of ombudsman, not as a scalp-hunter but as a person who will do the fair thing by both sides. It is just as important for the police officer against whom an unfounded allegation is made that there is a speedy way of dealing with that allegation which the public will recognise as being independent and fair.

I find it difficult to grapple with the concept of a sort of troika because there is a lot to be said for the ombudsman being a recognisable person. It will be necessary, particularly in the scheme's early days, to establish the office's identity through a personality. While compiling my report, I was very struck by the police ombudsman in New Zealand, Judge John Jeffries, whom everybody told us was there whenever anything happened; he was known and he was seen. Perhaps the Minister should consider that. There is no reason a single ombudsman should not be supported well enough and I am still not fully convinced of the proposal's utility.

As a corollary to the ombudsman, I would like the Minister, Deputy McDowell, to examine the disciplinary codes in the police service, which are unnecessarily draconian. The ordinary serving police officer is exposed to levels of discipline to which people in other parts of the Civil Service would not be exposed. It might be time to introduce modern personnel arrangements and practices into what is almost a military-style organisation. Much of the military style remains and the workforce might be happier if that were dealt with. If somebody from outside a police force makes a complaint, the force, wherever it is, tends to close ranks, but if a complaint emerges internally, the police throw the book at people, and it is a very heavy book. Perhaps the Minister should consider that.