Joe O'Toole (Independent)

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Michael Ahern, to the House. I am sorry he was given the job of bringing in this destructive legislation. I urge that some of the issues raised here are responded to in some detail by the Department of Finance. It is important that this is done.

I begin by declaring both an interest and a disinterest. The disinterest arises from the fact that although I am a teacher and a politician, none of us already in the system will be affected in any way, as Senator Mansergh rightly pointed out. Accordingly, in a personal sense, I have a total disinterest in what I say about teachers and politicians.

I declare an interest in the sense that I am the only person in the House who was a member of the dastardly Commission on Public Service Pensions. I assure Senator Mansergh that the odds were better at the pass of Thermopylae, as I was surrounded by the enemy all day long. I failed to convince them. They did not even discuss the idea of politicians. I assure the House that from the few times they made reference to it, their distaste and contempt for politicians was only marginally worse than their contempt and distaste for teachers.

I firmly support Senator Mansergh on two points. As I said to the Minister last week, if it is only €300 million we are talking about I can offer four solutions. There is no question about it. My colleagues in the INTO made it clear when the question of the 1% was being discussed that it was partly a solution, but the Government decided not to move in that direction. The 1% of the €2 billion that is roughly teachers' salaries at present would be €20 million a year straight away and one can work that out over 40 years and invest it and so on. It is very easy to get up to those figures. Senator Mansergh put his finger on the real issue. I am glad to have one such colleague in the House, because I have been saying this for 17 years, but I have never yet seen an acceptable demographic prognosis in the House. I argued this case in 1989 with the Leader of the House when she was Minister for Education.