Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)

I realise I am treading on eggshells on the question of teachers. We all know teachers who are deeply upset to have to retire at 65. Equally, there are other cases where it would be of benefit both to the individuals concerned and their schools if they could call it a day at a certain point. The Minister of State referred to the possibility of optional early retirement. Teachers are well represented among the social partners and if problems arise as a result of the legislation, I have absolute faith in the ability of people like Senator O'Toole, his colleagues and successors to negotiate within the broad framework of standard retirement arrangements something that is particularly adapted to certain cases for whom the standard scheme might create difficulties. We must remember that the problems are long-term ones which do not apply to existing teachers.

We are all aware that members of the Army and Garda avail of other employment opportunities. A period of service in the Army is, generally speaking, a good qualification for many other careers. The reason for the pension in these cases is that one has to attract people to these areas in the first place. The prospect of a pension on retirement at a certain age is part of the appeal.

I offer qualified support for Senator Bannon's idea about pensions for councillors. The role of councillors has changed a good deal. I do not think it was always a full-time position, but given the pressures of modern life it is becoming full-time. In recent years Ministers have considerably improved conditions in terms of pay and allowances. I agree in principle with Senator Bannon that it is the next logical step, but that is not to say that it will be feasible for it to happen next month or even next year.

I accept that I raised my eyebrows about the exemption for future Taoisigh. Taoisigh being new entrants is a contradiction in terms. I do not know about the aptness of comparisons with civil lists.

This is important legislation in terms of social reform. It is also important in terms of underpinning our economy's confidence in its soundness for the future. People are well able to make calculations as to where the economy will stand and what liabilities it will face in ten or 20 years' time. It is wonderful that these problems are being tackled early and that we are learning from the bad experience, in some respects, of European partners who have good pension arrangements that they, unfortunately, are unable to sustain.