Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Tá Aire Stáit na Saincheisteanna Tráthúla anseo inniu. Tá fáilte roimhe. Níl a fhios agam an bhfuil an tAire, an Teachta O’Donovan, ag teacht isteach. Is mór an trua é nach bhfuil sé anseo ar dtús báire. B’fhéidir go dtiocfaidh sé. Chonaic mé go raibh sé anseo níos luaithe sa lá.

Ag déileáil leis an gceist seo, is ceist ríthábhachtach í do dhream beag in Éirinn, ach bíonn tionchar ag an dream sin ar bheagnach chuile dhuine againn, i slí amháin nó slí eile. Is é an rud atá i gceist anseo ná go mbeidh muid ag déanamh leasaithe cuibheasach simplí ar an Acht Ealaíon, 2003.

Is iad gáire maith agus codladh fada an dá leigheas is fearr i leabhar an dochtúra de réir an seanfhocail Ghaelaigh. Tá sé éasca daoine a chur ina gcodladh; ní gá ach éisteacht le roinnt de na hóráidí sa Teach le go dtiteann daoine ina gcodladh, agus bíonn daoine ina gcodladh. Chun daoine a chur ag gáire, áfach, tá scil ar leith ag teastáil. Uaireanta, bíonn an scil sin ag daoine; beag beann ar an stad ina bhfuil siad sa saol, bíonn siad in ann daoine a chur ag gáire. Bíonn sé sin an-tábhachtach. Is leigheas ar leith é do chuid mhór d'hfadhbanna an tsaoil. Cuidíonn sé leo siúd a bhfuil dementia orthu nó atá faoi mhíchumas. Cuidíonn sé linne ar fad ó thaobh ár gcuid meabhairshláinte de.

Tá áthas orm fáilte a chur roimh roinnt de na daoine a dhéanann an ealaín sin a chleachtadh. Tá roinnt acu san Áiléar Poiblí nó ag féachaint orainn ó lasmuigh inniu mar tá spéis ag dream ar leith sa Bhille seo. Tá spéis ag ealaíontóirí timpeall na tíre ann. Is é an rud atá i gceist inniu ná an Bille Ealaíon (Coiméide a Aithint) (Leasú), 2024. Is Bille é a chinnteoidh aitheantas agus tacaíocht ón Chomhairle Ealaíon do na fir agus mná grinn timpeall na tíre, rudaí atá diúltaithe orthu toisc an fhéachaint nó an tuiscint atá glactha ag an Chomhairle Ealaíon faoi láthair as an Acht Ealaíon, 2003.

We gather here in the Dáil this evening to debate a very simple Bill that would add just one word to the law of the land, to include comedy in the definition of arts in the Arts Act 2003. We are having this debate at the culmination of a long struggle by comedians for recognition and for Arts Council support in particular. I welcome Ailish McCarthy, who has led the fight for three years now, gathering thousands of signatures on a petition that supports the intention of this Bill. She has also gained the support of numerous arts organisations. Ailish should have been spending her time creating for her comedy sketches and for all of her life as a comedian, rather than having to divert away from that creative work to bang down the doors of the Arts Council, the Minister, politicians and us who are gathered here, to demand equality for one of Ireland's arts. At the same time, she is also trying to keep comedians aware of the resourcing opportunities that exist through her Irish comedy guide. She does that out of the goodness of her heart and an understanding of how difficult it is for comedians and to harness an awareness among comedians and their supports of the need for supports for comedy in Ireland. She is a champion of her art and, on behalf of TDs across the Dáil, I would like to take this opportunity to commend her on her work. Gabhaim buíochas le Ailish McCarthy as a cuid oibre go dtí seo. Níor chóir go mbeadh sí ag tabhairt faoin obair ná go gcuirfí an t-ualach breise sin uirthi ag feachtasaíocht anuas ar an obair atá sí ag déanamh i réimse an ghrinn ag cothú coiméide agus gáire ionann, mar tá an fhéith sin inti. Tá aitheantas ag dul di as sin.

I would also like to welcome other comedians who joined us earlier in an audiovisual room presentation, some of whom are looking in on Oireachtas TV and elsewhere. We had a very interesting briefing this morning for TDs and Senators with a number of comedians and those who are supporting the campaign, including Ciaran McMahon, Sinéad Crilly, Anthony Ferns and Richard Cook, who have all been strong advocates for comedy. Richard Cook founded the Cat Laughs festival in Kilkenny, which marks its 30th anniversary this year. There are many other festivals around the country as well as weekly, monthly and impromptu comedy nights across the country, which deserve to be supported.

The purpose of today's Second Stage debate on Sinn Féin's Arts (Recognition of Comedy) (Amendment) Bill is to decide on the general principle that comedy should be recognised as art. Thankfully, in some ways the debate is already won, in the minds of most politicians and in the hearts of the public. We received expressions of support from TDs and Senators from all parties today, from Fine Gael, Sinn Féin, the Labour Party, the Social Democrats and the Seanad Independent Group, at that meeting. They are in favour of giving comedians the recognition and support they deserve. Nobody from the Government or the Opposition thus far has expressed any opposition to the Bill, which is a good sign. It is not a party-political issue. I hope we are not going to divide on it. We might divide on the approach to it later on, but not on the intent of the Bill. The Minister for culture, Deputy Patrick O'Donovan, has gone public and expressed the view on RTÉ that the Arts Council should fund comedy as an art form. In some ways it is down to the Arts Council, but thus far it has not been willing or encouraging of the Bill. I welcome the Minister's words.

The proposal to delay the Bill by 18 months in its legislative journey is very strange given the expression of support. The last time the Minister and I were having a spat here in the Dáil, he asked me what I had against Listowel. What has he got against comedians? We will have that spat another time; he still has time to change his mind because this can progress to Committee Stage. Deputy Ciarán Ahern has proposed a delay of a month. That would be logical. When we vote on this in two weeks' time, that would put it up to Christmas. The committee would not receive the Bill until January at the earliest. The Brennan report on the Arts Council will have been published and digested at that stage, so the Minister would not have the excuse of having to wait for any reports. We would be able to progress this Bill to the pre-legislative scrutiny phase and deal with the outcome of that report. I hope this evening's debate will change his mind and that the Minister of State, Deputy Dillon, will withdraw or at least not move the amendment to delay this. The delay is costing people money. At the end of the day, these are comedians who do not get the recognition they deserve and definitely do not get the funding and income they deserve for keeping us all happy in the way we should be.

There is no doubt that comedy is an art. Section 2 of the Arts Act 2003 defines the arts as "any creative or interpretative expression (whether traditional or contemporary) in whatever form, and includes, in particular, visual arts, theatre, literature, music, dance, opera, film, circus and architecture, and includes any medium when used for those purposes".

Comedy is not mentioned but nor are others. There is nothing exclusionary. The intention of the Bill, because they have been discriminated against, is just to insert that into the legislation so that there is no doubt. Ailish McCarthy wrote to all TDs in recent times and set out the case a lot more eloquently than I probably did. In one paragraph, she says:

Comedy is an integral part of Ireland’s cultural identity. It has entertained, challenged, and reflected our society while contributing significantly to the nighttime economy. Irish comedians have built a strong global reputation, enhancing Ireland’s image abroad while providing a thriving industry at home. Yet, despite its cultural and economic impact, comedy remains excluded from the same supports available to other art forms. This is why we need your support to progress this bill to the next stage.

The Bill needs to continue. It is not going to change the approach of the Arts Council overnight but it would if it became law within the next couple of months or a little bit further on if needs be. At least we would have thrashed out the impact of the change we are talking about.

We are trying to ensure that the Arts Council, which has a substantial amount of funding, shares that among all of the art forms. Thus far it has not been sharing that for the benefit of comedians in Ireland. We need to ensure that comedians have access to that funding - not a guarantee but access. They need access to apply for grants from which they have been excluded and access to apply for the supports that they deserve as an art form. That is the intent of the Bill but it is also the consequence of it because then comedians will be mentioned in law. Ailish McCarthy managed to get the support of a number of arts organisations and those who are supportive of, in some ways, the gig economy. She listed many of them: Safe Gigs Ireland, Aiken Promotions, Arts and Disability Ireland, Funny Women, Irish Street Arts, Circus and Spectacle Network, Give Us the Night, Disabled Artists and Disabled Academics, Youth Theatre Ireland, the Irish Theatre Institute, the Irish Comedy Guide, the Live Comedy Association, the British Comedy Guide, Gorm Media, the Irish Film Institute, Safe to Create and the Performing Arts Forum. Irish Equity, which represents actors and performers, has stressed that art is made by the labour of creative people and there is no doubt there is a great deal of labour involved in crafting a stand-up routine or a sketch or preparing an improv comedy. These take skills and require time and dedication to write, rehearse and perform. Learning and teaching are required to develop the skills involved in this art.

Comedy is not a new art. Not alone did the Ancient Greeks consider drama to consist of both comedy and tragedy, but stand-up was present too in the Roman world. A wonderful story in Mary Beard's SPQR: A History of Ancient Romedetails how a comic dealt with a hostile audience. The comedian who was on stage before him was killed for a joke that did not go down well in 91 BC. I am not suggesting we go back to those days but at least there is an understanding that comedy has a long history and is well respected. "So spare the swallow, which the gods allow to nest safely in all your houses”, said the ancient comedian, and today we in the Dáil say it. It is time to nurture the swallows of tomorrow. We do not have to look beyond these shores, however, to see the rich history of comedy as an art form. In Gaelic Ireland, the comedic art of satire was considered the most powerful weapon of a poet, capable of toppling a person's reputation, status and kinship and was even suspected of causing a person physical harm, as Dr. Gordon Ó Riain outlined to RTÉ Brainstorm earlier this year. I hope the Dáil will accede to the request that this Bill be passed and go to Committee Stage to continue its legislative journey without any delay. Go raibh maith agaibh.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I move amendment No. 1:

To delete all words after "That" and substitute the following: "Dáil Éireann resolves that the Arts (Recognition of Comedy) (Amendment) Bill 2024 be deemed to be read a second time this day eighteen months, on the grounds that this amendment is premature as the Minister proposes to await the report of the Expert Advisory Committee on the Arts Council before giving consideration to what legislative changes to the Arts Act 2003 would be appropriate.".

I thank Deputy Ó Snodaigh for his opening comments. The Minister for Culture, Communications and Sport, Deputy Patrick O'Donovan, is unavailable, unfortunately, to be here this evening due to prior commitments and sends his apologies. He has asked me to step in in his absence.

The Government continues its support for the arts and culture and places great value on culture and the arts sector. In the programme for Government, we recognise that they are essential to a well-rounded society, providing opportunity for education, expression and community engagement. The arts and culture programme of the Minister's Department aims to support the development of the arts, culture and creativity by individuals and communities. The provision of over €384 million in budget 2026 for the arts and culture programme will maintain and increase funding right across a range of key initiatives. In particular, the Minister will bring a successor scheme for the basic income for the arts pilot to Government with the intention of embedding a permanent basic income in the arts and culture sector. Support also continues in 2026 for the national cultural institutions, Culture Ireland and Creative Ireland. Screen Ireland's funding has also been increased to support its work in making Ireland a competitive destination for Screen Ireland production.

Regarding the Arts Council, in budget 2026, the Minister maintained record funding for the council. This is in the context of funding for the Arts Council having increased by over 130% since 2015. However, the Minister wants to await the outcome of the ongoing external review before considering further increasing the Arts Council's budget. As the Deputies will be aware, the Arts Council 2023 annual report and financial statements were submitted to Government last February with a report on the unsuccessful IT project at the council. This project, which failed to deliver - at a cost of €6.675 million - has given rise to fundamental questions about governance within the Arts Council. While the report on the ICT project clearly sets out the background to the project, it also points to a broader range of more fundamental questions about governance and culture within the Arts Council. Accordingly, the Minister subsequently set up an external review of the governance and the organisational culture in the Arts Council to Government. He appointed three experts with a strong background in governance of large and complex organisations to the committee, namely, Professor Niamh Brennan, who is the chair, and Dr. Margaret Cullen and Mr. John McCarthy. The Minister is grateful for their efforts in undertaking this critical task and looks forward to receiving their recommendations. He has also been clear about the failures that must be addressed to safeguard public funding and prevent a recurrence of issues that have arisen. This review is essential in addressing failings within the Arts Council and to put it on a solid footing for the future so that it can continue to perform the very valuable role in supporting and developing Irish arts and culture.

Alongside the review, the Arts Council has continued its day-to-day work in supporting Irish artists during the review process, and the Minister is very clear that artists will not suffer due to the failings of the council. To restore trust and confidence in the Arts Council, its corporate governance framework must be fit for purpose to support the delivery of its statutory responsibilities. Assurance is required that the culture of the Arts Council, at all levels, is open, transparent and engaged with all stakeholders both internal and external and in a manner that is appropriate to its statutory remit to deliver the arts.

As the Minister has said previously at the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Arts, Media, Communications, Culture and Sport, once the review of the governance of culture in the Arts Council is concluded, it is his intention to examine how the activities of the Arts Council can be widened to support more art forms. He has made it clear, and he will continue to do so, that he wants to see a more inclusive approach adopted by the Arts Council and a wider range of art forms funded and supported, with no form excluded from support, including comedy. He intends to enable the Arts Council to modernise and adapt to both the cultural and artistic needs of Ireland going forward. To commence this process, the Minister has asked his officials to engage with the Arts Council to begin consideration on how it will widen the range of art forms it supports.

While the Minister, Deputy O'Donovan, agrees with the intent of Deputy Ó Snodaigh's Bill, he believes that it is best to address this as part of the broader reform of the Arts Council. Accordingly, he intends to await the report from the expert advisory committee on the Arts Council, which is due for completion in the coming weeks. Given the scale of the failings within the Arts Council, it is vital that the response is not only comprehensive but also far-reaching and underpinned by transparent and rigorous analysis. The Minister will then consider how best to progress the report's recommendations, including making any appropriate amendments to the Arts Act 2003. For this reason, the Minister, Deputy O'Donovan, believes it is prudent to defer further consideration until the outcome of the review from the expert advisory committee. To facilitate that, the Government has agreed that a timed amendment of 18 months to this Bill is necessary.

Again, on my behalf and that of the Minister, Deputy O'Donovan, I thank Deputy Ó Snodaigh for his interest in this matter. The Minister looks forward to working with him on a broader package of reforms for the Arts Council in due course.

Denise Mitchell (Dublin Bay North, Sinn Fein)
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I support this very simple Bill, which seeks to recognise comedy as an art form that should be supported by the Arts Council. Every week, in this city and across Ireland, we have comedians on stage in pubs, comedy clubs and theatres. They are really important when it comes to keeping venues, particularly smaller ones, open.

Irish wit and humour is well known across the globe. I heard one Irish comedian say that performing in Ireland is harder than anywhere else because everybody in the room thinks they should be on the stage. I was really surprised to see that stand-up, sketch and improv comedians cannot apply to the Arts Council for bursaries that are open to other performers, especially when it is considered that our small island punches so far above its weight when it comes to producing well-known comedians who are so successful on the international stage. This Bill will ensure that comedy will get its own specific funding scheme. It will not be lumped in with everything else. I have heard from performers that this is important in making them feel valued and making them feel that their art form matters. Most importantly, it is keeping those comedians here in Ireland and not losing them to places like England, Scotland, Canada and New Zealand, all places where comedy is a registered art form.

Some have raised questions as to whether there is an element of snobbery behind why comedians are not included. I suppose that stems from the fact that comedy is a very accessible form of art that can be put on in small venues in nearly every community across this State. However, instead of that being a reason to look down on it, it is even more of a reason we should support it.

I am disappointed to see that the Government says it will delay this Bill for 18 months and I am not clear on its reasoning. The Government points to the review of the Arts Council but that is totally unrelated to this Bill. I ask the Government to drop its plans to delay this Bill, allow it to progress to Committee Stage and let us recognise comedy as a living, breathing form of art that is valued and supported here in Ireland.

Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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Molaim mo chomrádaí an Teachta Aengus Ó Snodaigh as an obair ar fad atá déanta aige ar an mBille seo. Irish culture is much revered around the globe, from our music, our poetry and our plays to our dance. Our culture is synonymous with our identity as Irish people both at home and abroad. Our old rebel songs give us insight into our past, honouring those who came before us, ag troid ar son saoirse na hÉireann. Our poets and playwrights are well renowned, and works by Beckett, Joyce and many others are still performed to much delight to this day across the world. The Feis competition of Irish dancing is as competitive as ever, with young boys and girls competing every year. These are what might be considered the traditional arts that Ireland is well known for globally, what is typically plastered on the walls of Irish bars in Tokyo, Washington, Berlin and Sydney, fud far na cruinne. A hurley stick or a bodhrán with a picture of Pádraig Pearse on the wall of your bar in Barcelona and you are halfway there.

Above all else, however, our internationally recognised oozing talent aside, it is our humour that is most well known among anybody we meet from overseas. It is unique. It is so cute and devilish that we had to give the particular Irish form of comedy its own word: craic. No one does it quite the way we do it, and this craic is invaluable. It is part of the fabric of who we are as a people - storytelling, talking, caint, scéalta a insint. We are born storytellers and entertainers, yet our craic is completely unrecognised by the Government. I know people might not necessarily describe what happens within these walls as much craic at all but it is important we recognise those who are good craic, including the many incredible stand-up comedians who have graced the Moate Theatre in Naas. I was there recently with a few of my friends. We saw Jarlath Regan from Kildare and we had a great night with plenty of laughs.

This Bill pays proper respect to comedy as an art form and recognises that it should stand among its cultural counterparts such as theatre, literature, music, dance and film. Currently, the Arts Council can fund art forms that are not mentioned in the Arts Act but it explicitly prohibits stand-up, sketch and improv, and I really do not know why. This Bill can fix that. This prohibition means that comedians cannot apply for bursaries while their counterparts in theatre acting, for example, can. Festivals funded by the Arts Council may platform comedians but there are no direct supports provided for them.

I ask that this Government not delay this Bill for 18 months but allow it to go to the next Stage as soon as possible.

Ciarán Ahern (Dublin South West, Labour)
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I move amendment No. 1 to amendment No. 1:

To delete all words after "2024" and substitute the following: "be deemed to be read a second time this day one month.".

I commend Deputy Ó Snodaigh on bringing forward this Bill, which I and the Labour Party are firmly behind. I also pay tribute to Ailish McCarthy for initiating the campaign three years ago and pursuing it so diligently over the past few years. This is a matter of dignity and respect for our comedians, who, to be clear, absolutely are artists and are loved and valued by the public here and the world over, yet somehow are not recognised as artists for the purpose of receiving any State support. It really amazed me to learn that comedy is not recognised as an art form. I think most people would assume it is. The definition of art in the existing Arts Act, as Deputy Ó Snodaigh pointed out, refers to "any creative or interpretive expression" and includes visual arts, theatre, literature, music, dance, opera, film, circus and architecture. It seems like a really broad definition, and I just cannot understand how the Arts Council does not see comedy as falling within that. I have heard that the supposed reasoning for this is that comedy is some sort of commercial art form. That in itself is, ironically, a joke. Every artist and every art form ultimately aspires to be commercially viable. We have some commercially successful comedians, yes, but there are plenty who are not.

We give Arts Council grants for literature, yet Sally Rooney exists. The current definition of "arts" also includes architecture. We are in the middle of a housing crisis and these guys can literally charge what they like, and yet they are considered to be artists and comedians are not. It is a fundamentally silly and illogical approach.

This Bill is very close to my heart, as some of my best friends are comedians. I dabbled in a little bit of comedy previously. I am proud that I am good friends with the guys in the sketch comedy group, Foil Arms and Hog, who are one of the outstanding comedic acts in this country and one of our most successful now. However, I knew them when they were younger and not successful and they were just foil arms and piglet; I apologise for that. We did some writing and acting together as part of a Father Ted play that we put on when we were all in the drama society in UCD quite a long time ago now. I even did some sketch writing with them after that and we almost went to the Edinburgh Fringe Festival together, but it did not happen at the time. They kept writing. They founded Foil Arms and Hog. They would not admit this to themselves, but we are under Dáil privilege here now, so what are they going to do? I was obviously the most talented and best looking of the group - the fifth Beatle, if you will - but they Pete Bested me. They ditched me and moved on to bigger and better things. I am fine; I am over it. I certainly am not going to hold it against every comedian in the country - at least not anymore. I went on to share a flat with Seán Flanagan from Foil Arms and Hog for many years when they were starting out. I owe Seán a lot when it comes to him sticking his neck out on the line for my political career and doing some brilliant videos with me during my election campaigns. He is one of my oldest and dearest friends and I have shared the ups and downs of his comedy career with him.

Irish stand-up comedy is not an easy environment to get a foothold in, let alone make money from. There are numerous small venues and comedy nights around Dublin, like in the International Bar, where comedians can get a start, but I have seen first-hand what a difficult lifestyle it is. We all know that many comedians need to go on the dole to maintain themselves. The fees for appearing at a comedy night like that are absolutely paltry. I saw when Foil Arms and Hog were starting out that they were splitting these fees in three between them. From living with someone at the start of their comedy career, I have seen the sacrifice, diligence and dedication that is required, the long and antisocial hours, the poor personal hygiene and the inability to wash dishes or carry out routine household chores, but it was all done for the sake of their art, which is their passion, or was it? It is not art, according to the State. Aside from the monetary aspect to this, how insulting and disheartening must it be to know that the State does not recognise what you are pouring their heart and soul into as art? It is not good enough for the Minister to kick the can down the road on this for 18 months for the sake of a one-word amendment. I thought this Government wanted to be one of implementation and action. Here is a good chance. There is no monetary ask here. This Bill is simply seeking that another form of art would be recognised for the purposes of applying for existing grants and funding. It is a simple but effective Bill. It is a one-word change to an Act, but one which could make a huge difference to our comedic acts. I commend it to the House.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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For the sake of personal hygiene, I hope this works.

Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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As the Social Democrats Party's spokesperson on the arts, I warmly thank and congratulate Deputy Ó Snodaigh for bringing forward this legislation, for championing this and for bringing in comedians today to brief us as a House. As Deputy Ahern has just done, I wish to outline my own comedy connections and why I feel such a connection with this legislation. One of the most important people in my life is Des Bishop. He is my cousin. He is somebody who I am very close with, and he has been a big part of my life and particularly my daughter's life since she was born 25 years ago. He calls me the sister he never had. I cannot quite say the same because I have a brother, but we are very close. Like Deputy Ahern, I have seen Des's career grow from when he was only 19 years old. He started in comedy in UCC with his brother, Aidan. The two of them found their way through comedy as a career and all of the challenges that it brings. As somebody with a lot of family and friends in the performance space and arts space more broadly, I also see the stark difference between those people who find success in arts and those who do not.

Everybody who engages in arts, including comedy, dance, theatre and visual arts, do it for passion. They do it because they are compelled to do it. In my experience, they genuinely have no choice but to do it. Comedy, in particular, puts people in situations where they have to dig deep and bear a lot of hardship to try to get to the point where they can break even and can actually build a viable career in this space. Yet, it is so important because it brings so much to us. Even today by having a little bit of a laugh in discussing this, it lightened the mood. It has made the whole debate a lot more enjoyable and probably more meaningful for anybody involved in it or watching. Laughter brings us together as humans and comedy creates laughter. However, comedy also prompts us to think. It prompts self-awareness in us. It promotes social causes, and Des in particular has championed that throughout his career, particularly in what he done around, for example, way back in one of his first television series where he looked at minimum wage jobs and then on towards learning languages, as he did with both Irish and Chinese and what that meant for his life. There is much power in comedy and what it gives to society and culture. This is something we have to nurture and cherish.

The impact that this lack of recognition has had on the comedy scene is quite stark because as things stand, everyone across the arts space endures the lack of support for artists in this country. It is what has pushed artists of all types abroad. London has become essentially an easier home for Irish comedians than Dublin. We see from their success just how much talent we have in this arena. It is a huge loss to our cultural scene and to our society that people have no choice but to practice their craft elsewhere. The Bill presents an opportunity to give comedy the recognition, and as others have said, the dignity and respect that it genuinely deserves as an art form. It levels the playing field in ensuring that people in comedy can access arts funding and that funding can help foster new talent, writing workshops, residencies and mentorships. People will have the chance to pursue a sustainable career, if they so wish, and to be supported in sharing comedy with as many people as possible. It would be an incredibly positive and easy move to take. There is already an argument that comedy should be eligible for this funding as one of the arts. The Bill would bring comedians certainty in the area and grant them the same respect afforded to their fellow artists.

I add my disappointment with the Minister's amendment to delay this Bill by 18 months because artists cannot wait for support. Just like we have seen this gap emerge between the end of the basic income pilot scheme and the beginning of the new scheme that we hope will introduced next year, to many it may not seem like a long time, but the reality for artists is that they cannot afford to wait. People have to make decisions about jobs and bills. It is often those pressures that simply make or break comedians and other artists. It should never be the financial pressure of the industry that decides whether art gets made and which artists get to make it, comedy included. An 18-month delay means 18 months where people decide they cannot make comedy, that they must emigrate or that their craft is not worth pursuing. It is 18 months where we will continue to haemorrhage that talent. For that reason, I welcome Deputy Ahern's amendment. It is much more reasonable in recognising that there may need to be a few weeks for the Government to get its act together, but I do not see that it needs to be any longer than that.

Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I commend Ailish McCarthy. I have met her on a number of occasions. She has left no stone unturned over years and years chasing this worthy cause. I acknowledge Deputy Ó Snodaigh for his work on it. We have discussed this privately. I am fully behind what the Deputy is trying to do, but I do not feel that the Bill goes far enough. I am putting my cards on the table. I simply cannot understand why comedy is not included. I cannot understand why amateur drama, which hits the heart and soul of every town and village in Ireland, and country music, which is now in venues the length and breadth of Ireland, are not included.

It raises the question: who defines what art is? Who decides what art is? It is simply wrong. In the arts Act, the guiding definition of the Arts Council states arts are creative, interpretive expressions in whatever form. However, for some reason I cannot fathom, it seems there is a wide cohort of disciplines that do not fit this definition and therefore are not eligible for funding. How anybody can say comedy falls outside this definition is beyond me. For a comedian to get up on stage in front of a live audience, it is as difficult a profession as it is a wonderful art form. They should have the same opportunity to access funding. Instead, the sector is woefully underfunded. I have met comedians living on couches, performing in venues that are decrepit and not fit for purpose, having to leave the country to further their art - I note the word "art" - or even worse, having to give it up altogether to get another job.

The Arts Council receives over €140 million in State funding with the objective of stimulating public interest in the arts, promoting knowledge and appreciation and improving standards within the sector and yet it is excluding an enormous number of people and groups faithfully pursuing their art across the country. Comedy is not the only victim. I agree with my colleague, the Minister, Deputy O'Donovan, that we need to look at the entire sector in the interest of ensuring fairness and inclusive funding right across the board.

Country music, which has experienced a massive rural revival, is currently excluded. There are hordes of people travelling to venues right across the country every Saturday night to see their favourite acts. Amateur dramatics is a huge part of the social fabric in our small towns and villages. The Fleadh Cheoil is one of the biggest events in the country, as the Ceann Comhairle well knows. It gets funding from the Government but not from the Arts Council. How in God's name is that excluded? Why should a talented ceoltóir or artist differ from an opera singer?

To an end, I do understand why the Minister has proposed an 18-month amendment to allow time to ensure a comprehensive reform of all sectors. We need to support the talented and hardworking people and groups putting in the effort to provide this joy and entertainment. We need to remove some of the burdens of costs and help those individuals scratching to make a living and providing a laugh for us. They deserve it just as much as those lucky enough to fall under the Arts Council funding umbrella.

I note there is an urgency. We need to take this and make it happen quickly. We are at great risk of losing great talent across our country due to the lack of funding. We must support all art forms. The funding is there. There is €140 million in funding but it is not being spread evenly across the board.

I would like to bring up a bigger issue in terms of the Arts Council. There are small towns and villages in Ireland that are getting zero from the Arts Council. I am based in Arklow and there are 14,000 people there but they have no entertainment venue. They have to drive 11 miles down the road to put on a show. I am asking that we totally review the whole funding of arts and ensure there is a level playing field. If there was ever a better example, it is the fact we are not funding our comedians.

Barry Heneghan (Dublin Bay North, Independent)
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Míle buíochas le Aengus Ó Snodaigh as an gcuireadh inniu. Bhí sé an-tábhachtach dom labhairt leis na daoine seo ar fad inniu chun scéalta a gcuid saolta a chloisteáil agus na trioblóidí atá siad ag dul tríd faoi láthair. Tá sé an-deacair do na daoine seo mar níl aon support ann dóibh. I thank every Deputy who spoke today. Many Deputies spoke about the loss of talent, talent being drained from this country with regard to the arts and comedy. My cousin, Amy Walsh, emigrated to Canada due to not being able to get this funding. She would love to be in Ireland, creating in our daytime and night-time economy, and adding to our economy by creating these nights that are very important to Irish society.

The programme for Government, which I signed up to, believes that culture and art are essential for a well-rounded society. I do not understand how comedians are left out of this. This is not a joke to them, no pun intended. This is about the livelihoods of these comedians. I held a comedy night as I was a comedian before I got involved in politics. We had a fundraising event, raising money for Ukraine, and multiple comedians came along without any payment. They knew it was for a good cause but this is a constant for them. I spoke to them and they generally do not get paid for these acts. They are shining a light into people's lives for those 20 minutes. I was more afraid speaking on a comedy stage than speaking in this House, which is very funny. I am afraid I would give Deputy Ahern a run for his money, going head-to-head in a comedy act. It is something that needs to be said.

I spoke to the comedians, Craig Moran, Rob Nother and Emman Idama, today. They are all constantly working and when the recent announcement to extend the scheme for artists was announced, it did crush them because it was not only comedians, but other artists, who were expecting to reapply to see if they could get into this scheme. When the Minister looks at extending the scheme again, he needs to look at what people are doing for the money they are getting because some people are not doing enough. These comedians are dying to get that funding.

Regarding the basic income for artists, in the programme for Government we said we were going to assess it and pilot it to the max. I ask the Minister to look at that. I want to say to all the comedians in the Gallery today that they have my full support. By postponing this by 18 months, the Minister is just kicking the can down the road. The programme for Government states that we are going to assess this. I hope we can review this and support Deputy Ó Snodaigh's Bill.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I thank all the Deputies for their very informative contributions and the obvious passion they have towards this subject. It is great to hear some people's passion not just for the sector itself, but through having past experience in it. It is incumbent on us all to recognise the world-class arts sector we have, both amateur and professional. That is recognised internationally and domestically. It is the ambition of the Government and the Minister, Deputy O'Donovan, that it continues into the future and is supported. I am aware that over the lifetime of this Government the Minister wants to support the sector and, as previously stated in relation to this Private Members' Bill, he has sought and received Government approval on the timed amendment on the basis that he is awaiting the outcome of the review of the expert advisory committee. That is sensible given the considerations and legislative changes that will be required within the arts Act. That would only be appropriate in the context of what we are discussing today.

The Minister has made it clear, and from listening to the many contributions today, we do want to see a more inclusive approach adopted by the Arts Council. Deputy Brennan talked about that and about other sectors also being included, namely, country music, amateur dramatics and comedy. We have many wide forms of arts here that have been excluded and that are not funded or supported. We need to look at this holistically in that regard. I know the Minster believes that is best addressed in the broader reform of the Arts Council and, as I said, on receipt of that report of the expert advisory committee, which is due for completion very soon.

From speaking to the Minister, I know he then wants to consider how best to progress the report's recommendations. I am sure the Opposition will accuse us of moving too quickly, and not taking time to address that and make the appropriate amendments to the Arts Act 2003. I will ensure that the Minister is made aware of all of the contributions from Deputies.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I will address the last point first. There is absolutely nothing in the Bill that requires a delay. The Minister has the Brennan report from the Arts Council. It will appear and require a study and perhaps legislation. There is no reason this Bill and the other cannot progress when needs be. There is nothing stopping us from having two arts Bills in the same Dáil term. This is quite simple. A delay is a joke, but it is a bad joke.

How do we get to a point where the vital role of comedy, which was recognised in Brehon law, is not only left out of legislation but is actively excluded from funding by our Arts Council? There is a real implication to being left out of the Arts Act. By denying comedians recognition as artists, we deny them support. The Ministe's decision to try to delay this for another year and a half is a slap in the face. As I said, there is no reason for it.

The Arts Council is already obliged under section 9 of the Arts Act to promote knowledge, appreciation and practice of the arts and assist in improving standards in the arts, but because it does not consider comedy as art, it therefore refuses to do so. Where it provides scholarships, bursaries, residencies and mentorships to other artists, it does not provide that for comedians. The Arts Council is not required to exclude comedy. The Department of culture, under the previous Minister, Catherine Martin, made it clear that stand-up, sketch and improv could be considered part of a recognised art form of theatre. The Arts Council chose to continue to discriminate. That is shameful and that is why I introduced the Bill. There is no need for it, but because the Arts Council, in its current format, will not recognise that, it needs to be dealt with through legislation.

Deputy Brennan made the point that other arts forms, such as country and western music, amateur drama, musical theatre and Irish dancing, fall under the Arts Act because it specifically names drama, music and so on. It is discrimination by the Arts Council in all of those forms. In this case, because it is not mentioned the council is able to claim that it will not fund it in any way.

The Arts Council is failing in its duty under section 9. The Minister should withdraw or not pursue his delaying tactic. At the very least, he should adopt, on Wednesday week, Deputy Ahern's amendment. It would allow the Minister to delay this for a month which, in effect, delays it until the end of January. Even then, it would go to committee and the committee would decide. The Government has a majority on the committee and, therefore, can delay it even further. The Bill will not even reach Committee Stage. At least that would allow us to continue the debate in committee and allow those who are affected a platform to explain how it has affected them. It would allow the Arts Council a platform to explain why it took the decision it did. It would also allow the Minister a platform to explain why, if he believes at that stage there is a need for a further delay, that is his approach.

The Arts Council continues to refuse to consider comedians as artists worthy of support. The wider legacy of snobbery that sees classical music but not country and western supported, funds opera but not musical theatre and excludes fashion design and storytelling as well as comedy needs to be addressed. That is a point we have heard. The Arts Council has to address that. If the arts committee needs to bring the council before it on matters other than IT supports and deal with the recognition of arts, that is something we should do. We should not have to discuss legislation to effect that.

Comedian Sinead Crilly put it very powerfully earlier when she spoke to TDs and Senators. She said it feels like there simply is not money for people doing arts more for the working class. The same snobbery was on show the first time comedy was ever discussed the Dáil. Seamus Aloysius Burke said in 1924 he was very much afraid that public libraries would exhibit such things as musical comedy. We are still in the same space as were over 100 years ago. It would be a crying shame if, 100 years on, Fine Gael - the party that Deputy represented - provided the same reason for comedy to be excluded.

I mentioned Richard Cook, who outlined the irony that the Arts Council funds venues and festivals that rely on comedy to fill seats in order to pay bills and develop audiences, yet it does not recognise comedy and closes its doors to comedians. He also challenged us to resist the hangover of old British colonial class-based ideas of art, where tragedy on stage was seen as noble but comedy rooted in the working class was seen as somewhat lesser. Other former colonies have gotten over this legacy. Canada, Australia and New Zealand are inclusive in their funding of the arts. Scotland has done the same. We have lagged behind. That is not policy. We need a policy of cultural decolonisation and that can be supported by accepting the Bill.

It is about deciding for ourselves what art means in our own voices and on our own terms. Our culture has always integrated laughter and intellect. It is built into the DNA of how we communicate, from Swift to Wilde, Beckett to Dave Allen, Deirdre O'Kane, Dylan Moran, Dara Ó Briain, David O'Doherty, Alison Spittle to Joanne McNally and Tommy Tiernan. Our best comic artists have always used humour to express insight, understanding and truth. We come from a storytelling culture, often an unwritten culture. That brings us back to our colonial past, where truth and laughter live side by side. The simple impulse that gave us the seanachaí, poet and playwright also gave us stand-up. It would be extraordinary if the country that does comedy best does not recognise it.

At this stage, I want to recognise the contributions of the other Deputies who spoke, including Deputies Mitchell, Cronin, Gibney, Ahern, Brennan and Heneghan, and the Minister of State. It was an interesting debate and it was useful to have it. I was not sure whether I ever wanted to hear some of the commentary about people's personal hygiene habits, but at the end of the day it was a bit of a joke and a laugh. We all laughed at it and we are all together. We did not fall out and we will not fall out on this matter. I can see the headlines tomorrow about all the comedians in the Dáil and how many of them are connected. One of the jobs of a comedian is to force us to look through laughter at our lives and positions and make sure that we can laugh at ourselves as well as at the world. Even in the toughest times the jokes, craic and comedy are what breaks the ice.

I hope the Minister, in the less than two weeks we have before we come back here to vote, will reconsider his decision to have an 18-month delay and adopt Deputy Ahern's amendment. If he wants to proceed with the delay, I would be happy to accept the amendment to ensure a short delay. It would be the same as passing the Bill today. The arts committee is booked up until Christmas and early into the new year. Let us adopt the Bill and continue the debate. Let us make sure that comedians in Ireland get their due recognition.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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In accordance with Standing Order 85(2), the division is postponed until the weekly division time on Wednesday, 19 November 2025.