Dáil debates
Wednesday, 15 October 2025
Ceisteanna ó Cheannairí - Leaders' Questions
5:00 am
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Before we begin Leaders' Questions, I welcome members of Ballymun Men's Shed. They are here with Deputy Rory Hearne.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Yesterday, I raised with the Taoiseach the scandal of big energy companies shamelessly ripping off and gouging households. I outlined how the latest report from the International Energy Agency highlights that Irish energy bills are three times higher than the wholesale cost of energy. The cost of energy has dropped significantly since 2022, but these companies are not passing on savings to hard-pressed customers. Instead, they pocket the savings to boost their own massive profits. Proof of Irish households being so blatantly ripped off should provoke the Head of Government into action, determined to rein in these companies. I asked him a very straight question: what will he do to end this rip off? In response, he offered absolutely nothing. Having already withdrawn energy credits, the Taoiseach now shrugs his shoulders as households are taken for a ride and as more than 1 million households face big hikes in their electricity bills this month.
People are very worried. I spoke with one woman last night who is at her wits' end. She and her husband have three kids. They both work and they are worn out from paying rip-off bills. This woman is up to ninety wondering how she will afford increased electricity bills this winter. She told me that she fears they will go into arrears and that they might face being cut off because she simply does not have a euro to spare. I was contacted recently by another mother. Her husband works full time. She says the unaffordable cost of childcare prevents her from working. She wrote to me, stating:
Our ESB bill became so high over the past two years that we were left with no choice but to switch to a pre-pay system, just to ensure the electricity was not cut off. I am extremely worried now as we face winter. We can't afford oil to heat our home. We are drowning in bills and we are struggling to stay afloat.
This is what the rip-off means in real life, and the Taoiseach allows it to happen. In other EU states, governments ensure that the regulators have full oversight of the hedging practices of energy companies, but this Government is happy to take companies at their word. That is weak and, at best, naive. We produced a Bill that will provide the regulator with such powers. We have been raising this matter for the past three years. The Government should, of course, implement this legislation and start putting manners on these companies.
Tá Fianna Fáil agus Fine Gael sásta suí siar agus tada a dhéanamh agus ligean do na comhlachtaí fuinnimh leas a bhaint as teaghlaigh na hÉireann. Diúltaíonn an Rialtas seo seasamh ar son oibrithe agus teaghlaigh agus i gcoinne phraghsanna arda fuinnimh.
In almost every other EU state, the drop in the wholesale cost of energy is being passed on to the customer. Households are getting a break, but it is not happening here. This disinterested, out-of-touch approach from the Government cannot continue. Yesterday, he said that he recognises and accepts that price gouging is happening. Back in July, when he was challenged on the floor of the Dáil, he said " we ... have the guts to take on anyone who is engaged in price gouging, absolutely." So far, this Government has been gutless. He is the Head of Government. He should do his job. Can he please tell households what exactly he will do to protect them from this blatant gouging and blatant profiteering?
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Ní aontaím leis an méid atá ráite leis an Teachta maidir leis an méid atá á dhéanamh ag an Rialtas ó thaobh an bhrú atá ar chosmhuintir na tíre maidir leis an ardú sa chostas maireachtála. Admhaím go bhfuil ardú ann, go háirithe i gcúrsaí bia agus cúrsaí fuinnimh. Tá cinneadh déanta ag an Rialtas cóir agus tacaíocht a thabhairt do dhaoine ar ioncam íseal agus atá ag brath ar leasa shóisialaigh.
The Government is very conscious of the enormous pressure on people on the ground in respect of the cost-of-living increases that have occurred over the last number of years, particularly the elevated food and energy prices relative to previous times. That is why in the budget we moved to take a number of key decisions to reduce pressure on a number of families, particularly low-income families and those who depend on social protection, and families more generally. The Deputy knows that historically the VAT rate was at 13.5% for gas and electricity. In the budget, we reduced it to 9% and we have made that applicable up to 2030. It will stay at 9% for the next five years. That comes with considerable cost, but we have to do it; otherwise, prices would be up even higher. We have increased the fuel allowance to €38 a week. That is a 15% increase. That will give an additional €140 to over 460,000 recipients. We have expanded that payment to include those in receipt of the working family payment. We have not stood back. We have been very conscious in our budgetary measures to try to protect those most in need from the effects of energy price increases, which we acknowledge and which are difficult in themselves.
We also have a very significant retrofitting budget, which does help those who benefit from that in terms of their household energy bill. About €558 million has been allocated this year for residential and community energy schemes, particularly the warmer homes scheme at about €280 million. Significant sums and resources have been allocated to get household energy costs down. About 8,000 energy upgrades in low-income households happened as a result of the warmer homes scheme. In previous years, yes, we did universal energy credits. We have been criticised for the high level of public expenditure. Sinn Féin wants to go another €4 billion or €5 billion, which would add 2% to inflation and increase the cost of living for people. We are about the eighth highest in terms of electricity prices across the EU 27, adjusted for purchasing power parity. The Minister has met with the companies. Anyone in arrears will be helped. People in arrears will be helped and assisted, outside of those on higher income thresholds. We have a regulator in this country, the CRU.
It published a report in 2023. It is very conscious of the hedging policy. The CRU, not me, argues that when prices went up, the hedging impacted beneficially but it is slow coming back down. Companies should reduce the prices and should reflect much more quickly the wholesale price reductions. The Minister will continue to engage with those companies. What has to happen overall is that the system has to change. He has set up a group to change the regulatory framework. We also have to do it with the European Union because gas has been the price-setter. The fundamental issue is the overall regulatory framework across Europe that governs the price of energy.
5:10 am
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Wholesale prices are down considerably, by over 70%, and that reduction is not being passed on, so bills are rising. Energy companies are profiteering, turning huge profits, and the Government is sitting idly by. Families and workers are struggling hard and the Government sits idly by. It is too lily-livered or perhaps too indifferent to bother to intervene and take this on.
I notice the Taoiseach's language is rather more watery today, but he acknowledged and accepted yesterday that blatant gouging and profiteering are occurring. Surely he accepts that families are struggling in the midst of a cost-of-living crisis. I want to know what he is going to do about it. He is not a commentator or some passive bystander. He is the Taoiseach. He is the Head of Government. I ask him to tell me how he will put a stop to this blatant gouging and profiteering. I ask him to tell me the precise actions he proposes to take.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Deputy is operating from a prepared script. That is obvious.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Answer the question.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I have just outlined the measures we have taken to help people, particularly those on low incomes. I am sure the Deputy agrees, by the way. I am sure she acknowledges the increase in the fuel allowance and its expansion into the working family payment cohort, and the reduction of the VAT rate to 9% for the next five years. I am sure the Deputy welcomes all of that-----
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The prices are through the roof.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The bills are going up.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
-----and acknowledges that those are decisions the Government has taken. We will continue to help people who are in difficulty, in particular.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Taoiseach does not live in the real world. That is the problem here.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
With the greatest of respect-----
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Deputy, the Taoiseach did not interrupt you.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Taoiseach does not live in the real world.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Deputy thinks she lives in the real world-----
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Oh, I very much live in the real world.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
-----but there are times when I think she lives in a political bubble. She should not be casting aspersions on other people in the House.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It is a statement of fact.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
We all come from backgrounds, by the way. I know exactly what the real world is all about-----
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
-----and I engage with people all the time.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Well then do something about this.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
All along during the energy crisis, the proposals Sinn Féin came forward with, particularly during the energy crisis-----
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
You are the Taoiseach.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
-----after the invasion of Ukraine by Russia, would have been catastrophic. Sinn Féin now wants us to do more to underpin the companies.
Paul Donnelly (Dublin West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Taoiseach still has not answered what he is going to do.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Sinn Féin wants us to support the companies further and further.
Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Deputy asked what the Taoiseach is going to do. If the answer is nothing, then say "Nothing" and sit down.
Ivana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I begin by welcoming developments for peace in Gaza, as I know we all do, and hope we will see the start of a path to real peace for all in the Middle East.
I think we can agree that we are all living in the real world. In the real world, it is a good thing that we are having a debate about energy prices. It is a good thing that we are debating the cost of energy. However, the "cost of energy" is a misnomer because the prices being inflicted by energy companies on households are reflecting practices of gross profiteering. They are far detached from real costs. Energy providers are not behaving as though their product is a public good and the true cost is being paid by hard-pressed families and households, people who are toiling through a cost-of-living crisis and who saw the budget come and go last week with, it has to be said, almost no reprieve or relief for them or their household finances. That is happening while executives at the energy companies are reaping record rewards. I remind the Taoiseach that Flogas hiked its prices by 7% after its parent company recorded operating profits of €820 million. Bord Gáis, after a year in which it made €75 million in profit, is adding €218 per year to the average bill. Pinergy added almost 10% despite its revenues having increased by nearly 40% last year. Energia is increasing its electricity prices by more than 12% after recording €154 million in profits last year. I am reading this from a script because it has to be read into the record. Pushing more households into fuel poverty is a high price to pay for what is clearly the hoarding of wealth by energy companies.
Yesterday and today, the Taoiseach has pointed out that energy credits are pocketed by energy companies and that is why they needed to go, but his analysis misses the point about the support that households get from such credits. The reality is that in last week's budget, the Government pulled the rug from beneath thousands of struggling families as winter bites. It did not use the time during which those measures were in place to bring in more sustainable supports. That is why we are seeing so many households in arrears. That is the reality.
The Labour Party's support for targeted energy credits is grounded in reality and the need to support ordinary households that are being punished for the failure of the Government to bring down energy prices. The Government was, it seemed, well able last week to ignore economic advice when it came to tax breaks for developers and, indeed, for a VAT cut for one sector, which will cost €681 million, without any evidence that it will save a single job or independent business. Yet when it comes to energy credits, a lifeline for people, it seems the Government is suddenly a slave to undergraduate economics. It says it wants more efficient solutions but we in Labour always offer constructive solutions. Deputy Ahern has pointed out that under the EU electricity and gas directives, price regulation is allowed in exceptional circumstances - for example, to protect vulnerable customers. Why is the Government not using that mechanism to rein in the greedy energy companies? Why is it not using section 10 of the Electricity Regulation Act 1999? Will the Taoiseach take the powers available to him to help struggling households with energy bills this winter?
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I understand the pressure on households and families as a result of energy price increases. We are living through a period of huge issues around energy, particularly since Russia invaded Ukraine. The Government has intervened, particularly at the height of that crisis, in a substantial way. However, retail prices are influenced by several factors, as the Deputy knows, including wholesale energy prices and supplier hedging. In Ireland, our long-standing reliance on fossil fuels, specifically gas, for electricity generation has been a driver of higher energy costs. That is a reality that the Deputy would have to acknowledge. It is a fundamental problem with our energy mix. Our location, as an isolated island, and our low density and widely dispersed population, also influence prices and have necessitated substantial investment in the grid.
The programme for Government committed to an independent review into the speed and level of pass-through from wholesale prices to retail prices, with an additional assessment of the overall price dynamics and an overall focus on the competitiveness of our economy. The Minister established the national energy affordability task force to identify, assess and implement measures that will enhance energy affordability for households and businesses while delivering key renewable commitments and protecting security of supply and economic stability. That task force will shortly publish an interim report and will consider measures to support customers throughout 2025 and 2026 and the forthcoming winter. More crucially, it will provide recommendations in respect of structural reforms that can be undertaken to reduce the cost of energy and electricity. There have to be structural reforms. I know, politically speaking, that everybody wants to have their usual soundbites and have a go at this and that, but how prices in the energy market are determined is fundamentally a structural issue.
The Minister will meanwhile continue to engage with the companies. We in the Government will take measures to protect people, particularly those on the lowest incomes. For those on the highest incomes, the Deputy is saying we should continue with the energy credits.
Conor Sheehan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
They would be targeted.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Deputy is not saying targeted.
Ivana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
We said that in our budget.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Deputy Bacik will have an opportunity for a rebuttal in a moment.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Deputy did not say it there. That word was not used there. She is to a certain extent playing to the Gallery.
Conor Sheehan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
She is not playing to the Gallery.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I do acknowledge the issue. The Deputy mentioned VAT reductions. It costs to keep VAT at 9%. That has been factored in for the next five years. We should keep it at 9% for gas and electricity. There is a problem, a huge issue, here. Over the next five years, we have to invest triple what we invested in the grid in the last three years. There is going to be more investment in the grid. That simply has to happen to guarantee energy security and supply.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Now is Deputy Bacik's opportunity.
Ivana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I absolutely reject the idea that we are playing to the Gallery. With respect, what I have heard from the Taoiseach does not do anything for the 300,000 households in arrears on their electricity bills or the 185,000 in arrears on their gas bills.
The Taoiseach is talking about reviews and task forces. I do agree structural reform is needed because what we are seeing is that the liberalisation of energy markets has failed. Competition has not delivered fairer prices for consumers. Energy companies are not competing with each other to reduce prices for consumers; rather, a price hike by one seems to be giving an excuse for a price hike to the rest. We do need structural reforms, but where are they? Why are we not seeing, for example, a levy of the profits of energy companies where they are not reducing prices for consumers? I read out the record profits the energy companies are reaping. Why are we not seeing action by the Government to target them? Why are we not seeing the sort of action I have listed that is possible under powers the Government has? Crucially, why are we not seeing more action on a moratorium on disconnections? For vulnerable consumers, there is a moratorium-----
5:20 am
Ivana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
-----from November to March. Why not ban disconnections for all households for five months over winter-----
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Thank you, Deputy. The Taoiseach to respond.
Ivana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
-----as a stopgap measure while we are bringing in structural-----
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Thank you, Deputy, your time is up.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Minister is working with the companies to help families who are in difficulty, and in particular those who are in arrears, by establishing hardship funds and making sure there will not be disconnections. That is over and above the measures we have taken to increase the fuel allowance for the working family payment cohort and to increase it more generally. The Minister has engaged with the companies in respect of those who are in arrears and particularly in terms of having no disconnections throughout the winter period.
Holly Cairns (Cork South-West, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The scenes of joy and relief in Gaza and Israel over recent days have been wonderful to witness. In particular, the release of hostages on both sides yesterday was incredibly emotional, but it struck me once more that even in this fragile peace, Palestinians continue to be dehumanised. Many of us have learned the names and personal stories of the Israeli hostages who were, rightly, released. However, there was no similar coverage for Palestinian hostages, many of whom were never charged with or convicted of any crime. Despite this, they have been referred to by the international media as prisoners, their illegal internment and torture in Israeli prisons never mentioned. We will probably never know their names or hear the stories of how some of them spent years, even decades, in Israeli detention without charge, only to return to a wasteland yesterday where Gaza used to be, to discover their family members had been wiped out in the genocide.
Of course, we hope with all of our hearts that this genocide is over, but we also have to face reality. Five Gazans were murdered by Israeli forces yesterday morning, just two days after they committed to a ceasefire. The simple fact of the matter is that the crimes and barbarity of the Israeli Government predate 7 October and in all likelihood will not come to an end with this peace deal. For decades, Palestinians have suffered under an apartheid regime and brutal occupation. In the West Bank, where Hamas does not have a presence, there were more than 1,000 violent settler attacks in the first eight months of this year alone.
This is why Ireland has a duty under international law to end all trade with illegal Israeli settlements. The Government had promised to enact its own version of the occupied territories Bill, which would do just that, but it has been slow-walking its passage all year and refusing to commit to including services, along with goods, as part of this legislation. Yesterday, the Taoiseach told the Dáil the feedback he is getting is that services are "not ... implementable", meaning a huge component of trade between Ireland and the illegal settlements will continue if this Bill is ever enacted. We need to see action and we need to see accountability. If services are omitted from the occupied territories Bill, it will be against the advice of the Oireachtas foreign affairs committee. It issued a report in July and recommended that services be included. The Taoiseach also had a letter from more than 400 lawyers and legal academics stating there is no reason services cannot be included, not to mention the strength of feeling among the general public.
Why is the Government intent on diluting the occupied territories Bill? We have seen today that the Government can act really quickly-----
Holly Cairns (Cork South-West, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context
------and clear Dáil schedules for confidence motions when it wants to.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Taoiseach to respond.
Holly Cairns (Cork South-West, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Why will the Government not act with the same urgency to enact the occupied territories Bill?
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
First, I will say that we earnestly hope that the peace will be sustained in Gaza. It is extremely important every effort is made to get huge volumes of humanitarian aid into Gaza, clean water and clean fuel in sufficient quantities to enable the people of Gaza to feed themselves, that the United Nations and all of its agencies would have primacy in distributing those goods, and that there would be sufficient deconfliction in Gaza to enable humanitarian workers and medics to do their work without the threat of violence or worse. That is, to me, now the most significant issue facing the people of Gaza, that that aid goes in unhindered, in line with the peace deal.
The release of the hostages is a big moment and should be acknowledged. They should never have been taken as hostages in the first instance. Many of them were attending a music festival and - I am not saying the Deputy is doing this - there should be no equivocation about that. Likewise, illegally detaining Palestinians without any trial or evidence base is also wrong. It is 100% wrong and should not be condoned.
The Irish Government, by the way, has been to the fore and if you talk to the Palestinian authorities-----
Holly Cairns (Cork South-West, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Just answer the questions.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I will answer the questions but the Deputy has made assertions and I am entitled to make assertions and make our point, which is that the Irish Government has been one of the strongest advocates for the Palestinian cause-----
Paul McAuliffeMicheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
-----for Palestinian self-determination and the Deputy will never acknowledge that. She keeps on having a go at the Government all of the time about this aspect or another aspect but the reality is very clear and if you talk to the Palestinian Authority or Palestinians, they will say that.
Shónagh Ní Raghallaigh (Kildare South, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
They will say that, will they?
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
In relation to the occupied territories Bill, I have been saying this for quite a while, and by the way I have read the Oireachtas committee report. In fairness, it makes the point, "The Joint Committee notes that no data was available to it to ascertain the quantity of Services imported from the Occupied Palestinian Territories and recommends that the Minister attempts to obtain and publish this information."
The committee does not know. The Deputy used the word "huge". No one knows. It is not huge. We do not know. The report goes on to state, "The Joint Committee notes that potential repercussions from the international community, in terms of both international relations and economically,-----"
Paul Donnelly (Dublin West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Here we go. Here is the crux.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
"-----are unknowable and recommends that the Minister undertakes efforts to establish and publish a range of likely scenarios."
Goods can be traced fairly easily through documentation, certificates of origin and physical supply chains. Services are a very different kettle of fish and we should all acknowledge that. I am just being honest; that is all. That is all I said yesterday.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
No decision has been made in relation to services.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I am just endeavouring to be a bit honest with people. Financial consulting, software development-----
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Thank you, Taoiseach. The time is up.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
-----digital services - they do not have a clear territorial link-----
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Go raibh maith agat, Taoiseach.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
-----so there are issues there that we need to work through if we are honest about this.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Taoiseach, the time is up. Deputy Cairns.
Holly Cairns (Cork South-West, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context
We have been discussing banning trade with illegal Israeli settlements for years now. The occupied territories Bill was first published in 2018, so this Government, and previous ones, have had a long time to consider all of these issues. It is not a really long piece of legislation, for that matter, either. The level of talking down the clock and briefly approaching the question at the end is such a waste of everybody's time. This is Leaders' Questions and the leader's answers is implied within that. Is the Government going to include services? I recognise that services are different from goods. That is why I am specifically asking the Taoiseach about services and not goods. If the Taoiseach could answer the question, I would honestly really appreciate it. The strength of feeling out there is extremely strong and the public deserves to know where Government parties stand on the occupied territories Bill in advance of the presidential election, which is coming up quickly.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Thank you, Deputy. There is to be no mention of the election, please.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The presidential election is about the person who people believe is the best person to hold the Presidency over the next seven years.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
With respect, the Deputy raised it.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Taoiseach, we are not discussing the presidential election.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That is a salient ruling. Thank you, on both parts.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I am just responding to the Deputy.
This Government has done a lot, internationally, through the various international legal forums and so on. We have sought advice on one aspect, but I have referenced in the House on a number of occasions that the objective here is not to punish Ireland. I read out that section from the Oireachtas committee report in terms of repercussions for multinational companies based in Ireland. What will be the repercussions for them in the United States-----
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
-----because of boycotts and divestment? There is an issue there. Is it beyond us-----
5:30 am
Holly Cairns (Cork South-West, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context
There is no loophole in the Genocide Convention-----
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It is not a back and forth.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Is there something wrong with raising that issue?
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I am just surfacing that issue.
Paul Donnelly (Dublin West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
So there is a price on genocide.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
All I am saying is there are very real issues-----
Paul Donnelly (Dublin West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Genocide is worth-----
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The time is up, Taoiseach.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
All I am saying is there are very real issues we should be clear-eyed about. That is all I am saying.
Paul Donnelly (Dublin West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
At least you said it out loud.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
We have been to the ICC and the ICJ. We have achieved a lot in highlighting and profiling this.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I think it is wrong the Deputy should constantly undermine and denigrate the Government in respect of this. I genuinely do.
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Yesterday, the Scoliosis Advocacy Network and the families of children affected by the scoliosis crisis gave a presentation in the audiovisual room. Mothers told of the deaths of their children and of the continuous extreme pain many children felt and others told of lungs and stomachs being crushed and their children being disabled for the lack of treatment. Images were shown of rods that were inserted breaking through the skin of the children. We heard about children suffering from infertility and higher rates of cancer because of the lack of treatment. The parents of Harvey Morrison Sherratt, a nine-year-old boy who died during the summer having waited years for an operation, also spoke in the audiovisual room. The Taoiseach must recognise it is outrageous that parents in such a circumstance have to pour out their grief over and over in the public domain to shock the political system into dealing with this issue.
The group also spoke about the toxic management culture in CHI and the bullying of staff and parents. One parent alleged that CHI falsely referred their child to Tusla because that parent was active in seeking treatment for their child. We were told of the spending of taxpayers' money without oversight, the insertion of unauthorised springs into children, hundreds of children going through operations that were not necessary and other hundreds of children on waiting lists. We were told not all of this in the past tense; much is still in the present tense.
CHI has descended into dysfunction over the past decade because of a lack of transparency. Twelve reports have been written about CHI many of which are still not published. Many of them castigate the continuous disaster within that organisation.
In 2017, Simon Harris promised that no child would wait longer than four months for an operation. This was not an exceptional promise. It was a promise to implement an international norm. Simon Harris failed in that promise and so too has every single Minister for Health. There is no accountability without a cost for wrongdoing. Real accountability can be the catalyst for change. This is an issue the Government keeps missing. This Government is allergic to accountability.
Look at the ballooning of the national children's hospital. Today, we learned in the newspapers that the completion date for this €2.24 billion hospital will be missed for the 16th time, an incredible situation.
Next week, we propose to table a motion of accountability. The Government brought forward a motion of confidence to this week. It is a cynical political trick to ensure voters will not be thinking about the Government's abysmal record with these children when they go to the polls in the presidential election. The timescaling of any debate by a government on that basis is absolutely wrong. I ask the Taoiseach to tell the families who have been campaigning that there will be a statutory public inquiry with the power to compel people and parents.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Thank you, Deputy, your time is up.
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Will the Taoiseach tell these children and parents they will no longer have to wait for this life-and-death treatment?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
There is a salient ruling of the House. I ask Deputies on both sides to respect it. There will be no mention of the Presidential election. We have agreed under salient rulings that the President's office is above debate. That includes nominees or mentioning the election. Both sides of the House, please respect the salient ruling. I call the Taoiseach.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I, along with many in the House, again offer my deepest condolences to Harvey Morrison Sherratt's family, his parents Gillian and Stephen, and to all those who have lost children in difficult and very challenging circumstances. I acknowledge and accept we need to do better in respect of the children of this country, particularly in terms of access to timely healthcare. Optimally, every child should receive treatment and a surgical intervention when it is recommended by the clinicians at the right time. It concerns me that children are waiting much longer than they should be for surgery, particularly spinal surgery for scoliosis. The objective from a Government perspective is that we consistently improve capacity in terms of human capacity - surgeons, anaesthetists and the entire teams that create the capacity in a children's hospital to do the surgery required - and that there is also better governance within hospitals, particularly within CHI. There have been quite a number of reports that have painted a very difficult, to say the least, picture in respect of some aspects of what has happened in CHI but those reports have been commissioned and published.
I understand the anger and frustration felt by many parents and children. Communications between clinicians, hospitals and parents should be a primary consideration and need to improve. There can be many challenges along the way and along the journey of any child who requires hospital treatment and surgery. Notwithstanding expertise and the various specialisms, basic communication with parents is something that can never be relegated as a priority. There have been issues in CHI in that regard.
A fundamental decision has been taken by the Minister for Health to bring CHI under the aegis of the HSE. I support that strongly. It is important in light of what has emerged. I believe the Minister, Deputy Harris, acted in good faith all along in this respect. He made his commitment in good faith based on interactions he would have had with the health authorities at the time. We will continue to prioritise all aspects of this area in terms of surgical capacity, governance and communications between families and clinicians.
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I asked Simon Harris 13 months ago how many children were taken off the waiting list for scoliosis treatment. Some 13 months later, Simon Harris does not know the answer to that question. That is an incredible situation. The Taoiseach spoke about the folding of CHI into the HSE. I welcome that. It is something we pushed for. I had this debate with the Taoiseach. The truth of the matter is that unless you get to the core of the dysfunction at management level, it is not going to make a whit of difference. I also welcome that there is an investigation into this but the truth of the matter is that so impervious is the management of CHI to transparency on this issue that unless there are tools to force it to come before that investigation and provide papers, it is not worth a hill of beans. It is absolutely necessary that the Taoiseach can give a commitment to the families today that we are not just going to go through the motions in these actions and that they will mean something.
The other aspect of this is accountability has to be imposed on this Government. If there is no cost in terms of these actions by Ministers, there is no change. People are cursed to wake up morning after morning to these situations happening over and over.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Minister and the Tánaiste have met with Gillian and Stephen and the advocates in respect of any potential inquiry and its structures. There will be further meetings in respect of an inquiry. There are a number under way into specific aspects within CHI. Ideally, they should inform the structure and nature of the inquiry. We have to be clear-eyed and honest with people about that in terms of timelines and a whole range of issues. The fundamental objective is to improve services and get timely access for children to surgery. I accept we are all accountable but it is only nine months since this Government was elected by Dáil Éireann as a government.
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It is 15 years of Fine Gael in the Department.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
In the general election, the people voted for everybody who is in this House. We formed a government following the general election. That is a fundamental point. Motions in themselves are not going to improve services but-----
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
-----proper examination through inquiries, yes.
5:40 am
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Before I move to Questions on Policy or Legislation, I welcome to the Gallery a very prominent group of students from Coláiste Naomh Cormac in Kilcormac, County Offaly. The group recently reached the Gael Linn all-Ireland final in Irish debating. You are very welcome. Deputy Clendennen has them visiting.