Dáil debates
Thursday, 3 July 2025
Ceisteanna ó Cheannairí - Leaders' Questions
5:15 am
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister's Government is all over the place on student fees. We have had the Minister for higher education, Deputy Lawless, clearly state on Sunday that without a cost-of-living package in the budget, college fees will go up by €1,000 in September. His position was then backed-up by the Taoiseach. Let us clear up this mess today. I have just one simple question for the Minister and it is the same question that has been anxiously asked at kitchen tables all over the country. When students get their bill in September, how much will they be asked to pay? Will it be €2,000 or €3,000? Students and their families need an answer to that question today. It is the only question I have for the Minister.
Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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The brevity of the Deputy's question gives me a moment to outline what Government is already doing to help with student accommodation-----
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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One question. One answer.
Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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-----and to make a difference to what we know is a huge cost for many families. The Government is clear in recognising education, particularly higher and further education, allows students to fulfil their potential and plays a vital role in the economic development of our country in creating jobs and culture that is the heart of the progress Ireland is making.
Let me outline the supports we are already providing and what we are already doing to respond to the need we know is there.
Máire Devine (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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We heard that yesterday and the day before that.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Quiet, please.
Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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At present, with the support the Government has made available through the Minister, Deputy Lawless, as well as the work of this Government and the previous one, one in three students did not pay a student contribution. At present, half of students, through the SUSI scheme available, are supported in costs for becoming students, which we know are difficult. The Government has adjusted the standard rate income threshold by 15% to ensure more families and students are in a position to get the help they need.
Conor McGuinness (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Is it €2,000 or €3,000?
Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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Today, households with an income of up to €64,000 do not pay a student contribution. For those families who have more family members or a higher number of children, that ceiling is higher again. For post-graduate education, maintenance grants have been fully restored and a SUSI support is now available for the first time for those in hybrid or part-time education. That is what the Government has done and is already in place as we recognise the great challenge many families and students face with the cost of education, which we know is high. Those are the supports in place.
How have we been able to do this? We have been able to do this for two reasons. First, it is due to the hard work of the Irish people and the contribution they make to our economy that, in turn, creates the resources we are in a position to spend. Second, budget by budget, the Government has put in place measures we believe we can sustain and are affordable which can accompany all the other things we need to do in higher and further education for students. The capital investment the Minister, Deputy Lawless, announced several days ago regarding additional student facilities will bring more facilities for a group of universities. Only a week ago, the funding in place to help improve the quality of education students receive resulted in many Irish universities moving up the world league ratings regarding their academic performance.
Budget by budget, we make changes we believe are affordable which recognise the challenges there. That is why we will do what we normally do in the approaching budget. We will put in place measures, including those to deal with the cost of becoming a student and the challenge many families face, we know are affordable, can be funded and can be built upon in the years ahead. I, along with the Minister, Deputy Lawless, and the Minister for public expenditure and reform, Deputy Chambers, are very clear on what that objective is. We are very clear that the temporary measures in place when inflation was so high need to be looked at as well as at how we can put in place other measures that can make a difference to something we know is an acute difficulty for so many. So many are already receiving support which we know is needed.
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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So, it is going to be €3,000.
Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy's question may have been brief-----
Máire Devine (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Is it €2,000 or €3,000?
Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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-----but the answer to it is longer in outlining the supports and difference we already make and want to build upon.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The Taoiseach, the Tánaiste, the Minister for higher education, the Minister for public expenditure and now the Minister for Finance cannot answer the simplest question that will have a life-defining impact on many students who are having conversations today, which will impact the rest of their lives, on whether they can travel to university or college or whether they must find somewhere more local and whether they will be able to afford a place to rent or whether they will have to commute. They do not want to hear what politicians are planning to do at some point in the future. I could stand up here and talk about how Sinn Féin does not want to just keep fees at €2,000 but wants to abolish them, but that will not answer the question being asked today. I will ask the same question that has been put to the Taoiseach, the Tánaiste and successive Ministers all week one more time. Will fees be €2,000, as they were last year, or will they be higher? Will the Minister please show people some common decency and come down from his ivory tower and answer that question? People need to know and they need to know today.
Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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It is exactly because this issue is life-defining for so many that Government already has supports in place.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Answer the question please, Minister.
Denise Mitchell (Dublin Bay North, Sinn Fein)
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Is it €2,000 or €3,000?
Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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Of course, Sinn Féin will never acknowledge this in any contribution it makes. The difference between those of us who sit over here and Deputy Carthy is that we are interested in solutions rather than sound bites.
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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They will not answer any questions.
Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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We are interested in action that will make a difference-----
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Answer the question. What is your solution?
Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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-----rather than the Deputy's attempt at action on the issue of the day.
Denise Mitchell (Dublin Bay North, Sinn Fein)
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Is it €2,000 or €3,000?
Conor McGuinness (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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It is a multiple-choice question.
Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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The answer to this question-----
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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You will not answer the question.
Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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-----is the same answer that has been given at every other point in recent years. As this is such an important issue, it must be decided budget by budget-----
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The answer was given by the Minister for higher education who said fees are going up.
Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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In the engagement every Minister has with the rest of Government and the Minister for public expenditure, the progress and supports in place recognise this is not only something that will be life-defining in a positive way but will also bring with it costs.
Denise Mitchell (Dublin Bay North, Sinn Fein)
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So you do not know.
Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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What Government wants to do is help in a permanent way and we will outline our answer to that serious question, as we will to many others, when the budget is completed.
Conor McGuinness (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Multiple choice, Minister. Is it €2,000 or €3,000?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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They are going to college in September. The budget is not until October.
Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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When will the Government get its act together and level with parents and students? It has been five days since the higher education Minister took to the airways and dropped the bombshell that parents and students will have to find another €1,000 to fund college before September. He did not try to sugar-coat that news; it was quite the opposite. He said, "All of us in any walk of life have to play the hands we are dealt." It was utterly galling and incredibly tone deaf; a member of Government actively stacking the deck against students and families, essentially telling them to suck it up - that is what he said - and play the bum hand they have been dealt.
Elaine is one parent who is trying her best to play the hand she was dealt. She has one daughter going to college and another starting in September. She has already told her children they cannot go to college in Dublin because accommodation is too expensive and now she is worried about how she will cover student fees, which are increasing for her from €2,000 to €6,000. Elaine told “Liveline” that she and her family went on a foreign holiday recently. It was the third time they have been abroad in 22 years and now she really regrets that decision because she does not know if she can afford to send her children to college.
There are thousands of families all over the country in exactly the same boat that Elaine is in. They have built family budgets on commitments given by the Minister and his colleagues. They believed Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael when they promised to reduce fees during the election. They believed the promises in the programme for Government that they would reduce college fees and they have been betrayed. They have learned that this Government cannot be trusted and that its promises are not worth the paper they are written on.
Students and families have been led down the garden path by this Government and they are absolutely sick of its games. I am astonished that the Minister thinks it is okay to tell families, “Wait until the budget and we will clarify matters for you.” That is four months away. Students and families cannot budget like that. They need to make plans now. They do not have a grand or three down the back of the sofa that they can easily pull out. They will need to scrimp and save and sacrifice to cover this increase. Does the Minister not understand that? Does he not get that?
This Government promised to reduce college fees and the Minister should have no problem today in clarifying whether it is going to keep to the commitment that it made. Will the Minister tell Elaine and all of those other parents out there whether or not they will see an increase in college fees come September? Will they be required to pay €2,000 or €3,000?
5:25 am
Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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First, I want to deal with the different language and points that the Deputy has made before I come to the really important issue of Elaine, her children and her children's future. For the Deputy to use language such as “stacking the deck against students” does no justice to the seriousness of this cause and demeans the need for serious debate regarding important decisions that this country has to make. When the Deputy suggests that the Minister for higher and further education is looking to make decisions that disadvantage students, that he is looking to make decisions that worsen the prospect of students, not only do I know that the Deputy really does not believe that, but I know that, by making that charge, she devalues the serious issue she is raising in the debate. What the Minister, Deputy Lawless, is seeking to do, and what he will do with support from the Government, is look at how we make progress on the programme for Government, how we can deal with issues of affordability and how we can make progress on the affordability issues in higher and further education while dealing with all of the other important issues that Elaine and the rest of the country want to see us make progress on.
On the broad issue that the Deputy is raising on affordability, let me again state what we do. It is important to acknowledge what is there before we look at how it can be improved. It is important that even if these supports are not available to Elaine, they are available to other people. They are available to other citizens because we recognise the importance of the affordability of higher and further education and we are committed to looking at how that can be improved. The reality is that, as the Deputy puts that question to me today, 143,000 students and their families benefit from free fees. They benefit from that because they deserve to benefit from it. We know that for those 143,000 families, there are students who might not otherwise be able to go to college and benefit from the ability to have their prospects reshaped by going to higher and further education and studying further. The reality is that 60,000 students at the moment benefit from lower forms of student contribution, again, because they deserve to. The reality is that, today, 80,000 of our student population are benefiting from either no fees at all, because of the various schemes that are in place, or partial fees.
All of that is in place because of our desire and the commitment we have to ensure that for Elaine, and for all the other families across the country for whom affordability is an issue, there are supports in place to help. What we will be doing, as we move to the necessity of having more normal budgets in place year by year, is looking at how we can make progress, which we will, on the affordability and quality of, and access to, higher and further education. That is what the Government will do, and we will work with the Minister, Deputy Lawless, and the rest of the Government to make progress on that.
Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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The Minister is clearly not listening to what I am saying and, what is worse, he is clearly not listening to what parents and students are saying at the moment. They believed the Government when it said in the programme for Government that it would continue to reduce student fees. They believed it when it said that. It could not be any simpler. The question is this. Is the Government going to keep its promise or is it going to break its promise? That is the question for the Minister. Will parents be paying €2,000 in September or will they be paying €3,000? Do not answer me. Answer all of the parents out there who are asking that question. At least give them the respect of giving them that information so they can plan their budgets for September.
Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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It is because of my respect for those families that it is important to give a clear and honest answer. It is important to recognise that those families also have other needs and issues that they want our country to make progress on. In order for us to make progress on those collectively, we have to make decisions as part of the budget process so we can ensure that the changes we make are affordable and sustainable and can be built upon in the years ahead. The families the Deputy is raising are the same families who engage with me, the same families who are contacting Deputies on the Government benches-----
Denise Mitchell (Dublin Bay North, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister is still not giving them an answer.
Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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-----not only with questions on this but on many other priorities they want to see the Government make progress on. It is what we have done each year. We will need to do that now in the context of having normal budgets in a world that is becoming more uncertain and complex. We will need to look at how we can make improvements, budget by budget. That is why, as has always been the case, we will be in a position to give a clear answer to that when our budgetary work is done, and to respond to all of the needs that are there within our society in addition to this critical need of the affordability of education.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Yesterday, 94 Palestinians were killed in Gaza. Forty-five of them were killed while waiting for aid from the so-called Gaza Humanitarian Foundation. Today, so far, 87 people have been killed, and every day has a similar horrific number of casualties. In just one month, 600 Palestinians have been killed and more than 4,200 have been wounded by Israeli fire near aid distribution sites. A new low in this genocide is the use of aid as a weapon to ethnically cleanse large parts of the Gaza Strip and to assemble people in order to be shot down in what is being described as a death trap. People saw the horrendous pictures from Monday of a café and the people inside it blown to bits. It has been reported that a 500 lb was used by the Israeli military to do this.
The Minister has previously and repeatedly defended the authorisation of the sale of Israeli bonds by the Irish Central Bank. We know now from the Central Bank that €418 million was raised by Israel in these war bonds approved by the Central Bank between October 2023 and April 2025. That is a quarter of all funds generated globally by these bonds. How many bullets did that pay for? How many missiles did it pay for? How many bombs did it pay for? Does the Minister accept that it is time to stop this complicity of the Irish State in genocide?
Let me quote a Central Bank worker who stated:
When over fifty-thousand people – seventeen-thousand of them children – are dead, murdered in their homes, schools, hospitals or killed trying to escape the slaughter (Rafah, Jabalia, Khan Younis, etc.) I must admit I find it difficult to discern the difference between the Bank’s official line – ‘we are guided by the law and if the requirements under the prospectus regulations are being met, we must comply with the law’ and the defence claimed by Soldier F, the perpetrators of genocide in Rwanda, Cambodia, Sudan, Myanmar the defendants at Nuremberg – ‘we were just following orders’ – the Superior Order defence.
The same applies to a Government which has twice now voted not to end this complicity. It is incredibly unfair to put the workers in this situation because of the Government's failure to act. We know that there is an email from the Israeli Ministry of Justice previously talking about a confidential phone call with the Minister and the Minister saying that the Government would block the occupied territories Bill. Now, here we are again, with the Minister blocking action to stop funding the genocide. What will it take to shift the Government on this? What will it take for the Minister to act?
5:35 am
Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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In recognition of the horror that is being inflicted on the people of Gaza, the loss of life, the new low that we are seeing being perpetrated when aid is being used in a way that appears to be assembling people for further deaths and injury, let me outline what the Government has done and what we continue to do to respond in a diplomatic and practical way to this. I refer to the work the Irish Government has done in responding to the clear sentiment of the people of Ireland in our intervention in the International Court of Justice in the case taken by South Africa; what has happened in recognising Palestine as a sovereign and independent state; our support for a proposal from the Netherlands to review the EU's trade and political relationship with Israel; the fact that we were the first country to call for UNRWA to remain in Gaza and that for the past two years alone we have allocated €58 million to support its work; and the fact that Ireland has been at the heart, as demonstrated by the Taoiseach and Tánaiste in the past number of weeks, of making a case for a different diplomatic approach from the European Union to respond to the loss of life and horror that the people of Gaza are confronting. That was recognised earlier in the week. The Prime Minister and Foreign Minister of Qatar visited Ireland to engage with us. Qatar is a country playing a key role in trying to stabilise and bring peace to the Middle East. He visited to engage with the Government regarding our diplomatic efforts and the work we are doing to make a difference.
I, again, refute the charge that the Deputy made against me personally and note that the call did not happen. I cannot help but be struck by the irony that the Deputy would rather believe the Ministry of Justice of Israel than me on the matter given everything else he says about that state.
As regards the role of the Central Bank, let me again emphasise what it does not do. The Central Bank does not sell bonds on behalf of the State of Israel and nor are these bonds listed in our Stock Exchange. The legislation the Opposition has proposed, which the Deputy correctly said I argued and voted against, is, we believe, unworkable and would not have been in line with the law of the European Union. Instead, what we need to do, recognising the fact that while we are a member state of the European Union, there are many other member states of the European Union that hold differing views, is work to build up a diplomatic consensus to make a difference to that issue. That is not done by Ireland acting on our own. It is done through the patient work of diplomacy, which the Taoiseach and Tánaiste are at the heart of doing, to change the stance of the European Union on this issue, while taking action ourselves, as we have done and which is recognised by the leaders of the people of Palestine, to make a difference to the horror that we see unfolding.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Every time we raise this issue, we get the same response from the Government, which is, basically, to ask why we are not thanking it for all it is doing and for not being as bad as the western states that arm, fund and enable this genocide? I am sorry. We, and the public, have a higher standard of no complicity in the genocide. That is not only a moral standard; it is a legal standard. Under international law, all states have an obligation not to assist in any illegal situation, such as occupation, illegal settlements, apartheid or genocide. The Irish Government itself recognises that genocide is happening. Does the Minister not see that providing access to EU markets to fundraise to support genocide is a violation of our obligation not to assist?
It is true the Central Bank does not endorse this but it authorises it. Without the authorisation of a central bank, these bonds could not be sold. That is over €400 million. Does the Minister not accept that he should act, that declaring this a genocide has consequences and that he should do everything in his power? The Central Bank has said it will adhere to any financial sanctions or restrictive measures that are imposed under law. Therefore, the Minister should instruct the Central Bank or we should change the law. We need to stop the sale of genocide bonds.
Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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At what point in my contribution did I look for thanks or recognition? At what point in the statements that I or any other member of the Government has made in relation to what is unfolding in the Middle East have we looked for recognition from the Deputy or, indeed, anybody else?
Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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The Taoiseach does it constantly.
Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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What we are doing is using the diplomatic resources that are available to us and our political leadership to make a difference, in practical and political terms, to the people of Gaza and to the horror that is unfolding to them and which has gone on for too long, in calling for a ceasefire, in making the case for a review of the trading relationship with Israel within the European Union, in the work the Taoiseach did in the European Council last week and in the work the Tánaiste has done in all of the Foreign Affairs Councils he has attended. That is what we are doing - by action.
The Deputy made reference to the need for higher standards. There are standards that matter here. There are standards that matter in terms of only giving commitments to things that we know we can legally do and that can have a practical effect. That is what the Government is doing. Our actions are recognised by those who lead the people of Palestine and their allies. Regardless of that, what we will do is continue with the patient political work that is needed to make a difference with regard to a ceasefire and to support the people of Gaza in their hour of greatest need.
Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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God forbid you would break a law to end the genocide. It would be terrible.
Ken O'Flynn (Cork North-Central, Independent Ireland Party)
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On behalf of Independent Ireland, I add my sympathies to those made yesterday to the family of Brother Kevin Crowley.
The European Commission has now issued a formal notice to the State demanding that we implement the so-called hate speech laws under the threat of infringement proceedings. Once again, I see indications from the Government of the bending of the knee. It is willing to compromise the constitutional freedoms of the Irish people to appease the European institutions and digital outrage merchants. Let me ask the Minister plainly: will the Government stand over a law that criminalises people for what they think and say rather than what they do? We are not talking about the incitement of violence, threats or harassment. We are talking about words, ideas and opinions, sometimes unpopular and uncomfortable but still lawful expressions, which are supposedly free in a republic.
Is the Minister aware that in Finland, a member of parliament was prosecuted for publicly citing scripture. In Sweden, a pastor was given a one-month prison sentence for publishing his sermon. In Denmark, an MP was convicted for his views on Islam. Interestingly, in the Danish hate speech law, at section 266b, the truth is not a defence in hate speech, regardless of the factual accuracy in a statement that is deemed insulting.
In parts of Europe, laws of being used to criminalise satire, prosecute artists and silence dissent. In Scotland, even private conversation spoken within one's own home may fall within the remit of criminal hate speech. This is not theoretical; this is happening.
Ken O'Flynn (Cork North-Central, Independent Ireland Party)
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Could we have one meeting in the Dáil, please? If we are to pass this legislation, we must ask ourselves, "What comes next?" Will quoting scripture become a punishable act, something that fines the teaching of exclusionism? Will religious observations be branded as hateful if they conflict with the views of the public? Will the right to express a moral belief, if it is found to be uncomfortable, not be accepted?
Ireland already has hate speech laws in place. These deal with genuine hate speech, which is about the incitement of violence. What exactly is the real purpose of this proposed legislation that is to come before us? Is it to protect people from violence or to protect the Government from criticism?
Who will define hate for this House? Will it be the courts, civil servants, an online administrative service or an algorithm? What will the threshold for criminality be if I disagree with somebody's views? Will I be found a criminal if I have a different view from the Minister?
5:45 am
Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy will certainly not be found a criminal for having a different view from me.
Ken O'Flynn (Cork North-Central, Independent Ireland Party)
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I hope so.
Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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I assure him of that. As we deal with this important matter that is at the heart of how we conduct politics in our society and the liberal democracy we are all proud of, which we know we can never take for granted and have to protect and renew by act, deed and word, it is important to remember what has already happened and what the legal framework for all of this is. As the House will be aware, the Criminal Justice (Hate Offences) Act 2024 came into effect on 31 December last year. That Bill prescribed prison sentences for very specific crimes where word or incitement is proven to be motivated by hatred or where hatred is demonstrated. What that did was put the right legislation and right legal framework in place to ensure that any assault aggravated in any way by hatred is one that will attract a higher prison sentence. That is what we have already done. Therefore, in dealing with the issues the Deputy raised and the charges he made regarding how we want to maintain that balance, it is a balance that deserves further debate, maybe in a more careful way. I believe the use of language and the way we describe issues in the House have an effect on the tone of politics. In turn, the tone of politics affects the conduct of politics, as well as how we can make the case for politics as a force for good and helping with the issues all of us are elected to raise. We will do that in a way that gets that balance right.
I am not familiar with the detail of the legislation in Denmark or Sweden the Deputy referred to. They have political traditions that are every bit as proud as ours and take the case of parliamentary democracy and freedom of expression every bit as seriously as we do. If, however, there is cause to consider the matter further in Ireland, we will do three things. First, we will ensure that whatever we do continues to be consistent with the constitutional framework, which we cherish, in place in our country. Second, any such moves or further decisions are ones that always have to be proportionate and recognise the deep value of free speech and the right to freedom of expression. Third, freedom of expression is not cost free or consequence free. Words can be used in such a way that causes more than hurt and offence; they can influence how others act. That is recognised in the legislation the Government already has in place. The Deputy and others can be assured that in any further consideration of this issue, the Government and the Minister, Deputy Jim O'Callaghan, will always be aware of the delicate and vital balance we need to maintain.
Ken O'Flynn (Cork North-Central, Independent Ireland Party)
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Is the Minister aware that the European Commission has sent a request to the State on this to ask us to tighten the laws? Is the Department of Finance prepared to pay the fines if we do not change the laws? There are proceedings in that regard that have been cited by the European Union.
I draw the Minister's attention to the European Court of Human Rights verdict in the Handyside v. the United Kingdom case in 1976, when it was found that freedom of expression includes speech that offends, shocks and disturbs. That was accepted by the court. I also bring the Minister's attention to Article 40.6.1° of Bunreacht na hÉireann, which outlines the right to expression. Will the Minister confirm that there will be no other influence from the European Union to bring in more hate speech legislation? There is a genuine concern about people's right to talk and their right to stand out. Many people in this country have a view that conflicts with many European countries when it comes to Palestine and Israel. Will all those people be included under a hate speech law?
Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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The European Union is an institution that we are part of and that we shape, benefit from and influence. Implicit in the Deputy's question is the idea that the European Union is handing down direction or making decisions that we are, in some way, not able to influence or respond to. I am not familiar with the exact detail of the engagement the Commission has with the Department of justice. The Minister for justice will treat any such engagement from the Commission in a very serious way.
The Deputy referenced the European Court of Human Rights, which is another institution that has done so much to protect and advance human rights and political and civil liberties. It is another institution that Ireland engages with and has the greatest of respect for. What I can do is restate the principles I outlined, which are that freedom of expression is precious and liberty in a liberal democracy is something we must protect, but words and acts also have consequences. We have looked to recognise that in the legislation in place, which the Dáil passed. In respect of any further initiatives that could originate within the European Union or elsewhere, we will be conscious of the need for Ireland to maintain that balance.
Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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I am sure it will go down well on Gript anyway.
Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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At least we talk to them.