Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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After the confusion of last week, I thank the Minister for coming in himself to deal with this issue. There are a range of issues relating to resources for An Garda Síochána that I discussed with the GRA and the AGSI yesterday. Today, I specifically ask about the resource the public knows as our Garda stations. In particular, is the Minister aware of the report done by the Office of Public Works, with the State Claims Agency and An Garda Síochána, in December 2016 on a review of asbestos surveys of Garda buildings? Will he confirm whether he is and whether the Commissioner or Department has informed him of this or not? The report states that 74 stations are affected by asbestos. The director of the State Claims Agency at the time, Mr. Pat Kirwan, said that 12 Garda stations in particular were very badly affected and remedial works would have to commence within three months. That was nine years ago. The work has not happened. The 12 stations are Mountjoy, Kevin Street, Naas, Santry, where some works have happened, Bandon, Kilmainham, Ashbourne, Newcastle West, Baltinglass, Tramore, Blackrock and Blessington.

On 3 January 2017, this report was sent to the head of Garda health and safety and copied to the head of the Garda estate. It was titled as "necessary attention". We then had nothing. It went into the abyss. We then had an issue at Santry Garda station, which the Minister is probably aware of, where the station ended up having to be closed in January of this year because of an issue with asbestos. I have a query about the certificate given for reoccupation and where that stands. He might come back to me on that. There is a real issue here regarding health and safety, obviously, in the exposure to gardaí, the public, contractors, etc., but also in respect of the correspondence in the report, where Mr Kirwan, director of the State Claims Agency, said that unless the remedial work was undertaken, the State Claims Agency would be unable to defend future claims. Why was that not acted on? Have we exposed the State to considerable liability?

This is before, as I am sure the Minister is aware, the asbestos directive from the EU has to be transposed into law by 21 December this year. That provides for a ten times decrease in maximum occupational exposure limits. We did not act from 2016 until now to the scale required. The SCA said in 2016 that we were exposed in respect of these Garda stations; I have a list of those stations and what is required in all of them. If we are exposed to that level and this directive has to be transposed by 21 December this year, where does that leave us as regards any gardaí who have been sick in the intervening years, who have had respiratory issues or possibly had issues in relation to cancer, where Garda members have been pregnant, where there have been issues regarding contractors and maybe even issues in respect of members of the public? Where are we on this? Was the Minister aware of this? What remedial actions are happening? What is the plan? Was the Minister told about this issue by the Garda Commissioner? It looks like he tells the Minister very little.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy for raising this issue. I publicly apologise for the fact there was confusion last Wednesday. Deputy Kelly put down this issue for last Wednesday but I was not here through some confusion in the office.

To answer the Deputy's question directly, I am not aware of the December 2016 report he referred to, which was commissioned by the OPW and the State Claims Agency, in respect of asbestos in Garda stations. However, I am fully aware that very many stations in this country need to be refurbished and upgraded. Last Monday, I was in Castlepollard Garda station with Deputy Troy to look at the station there. It is clearly a station that is archaic. It needs to be modernised. I am sure that is also the case in respect of other stations throughout the country.

Deputy Kelly raised the issue, which is his primary concern and is obviously also of concern to me, of the safety of people working within An Garda Síochána stations, whether they are attested members of An Garda Síochána or Garda staff. Everyone who is working is entitled to ensure that they are working in a safe work environment. I would be extremely concerned if it were the case that they were not working in a safe environment. I will go back and look at the report in respect of what the Deputy raised. Obviously, the concern is an individual within An Garda Síochána getting ill as a result of the presence of asbestos. Fortunately, that has not been brought to my attention as of yet and, hopefully, that is not the case. It is certainly the case when it comes to older buildings throughout the country, I regret to say, that very many of them have asbestos. It was a material that was perceived as being acceptable many decades ago. This is not just an issue that is of concern to An Garda Síochána. It has a broader concern.

I note what the Deputy said in respect of how we will be able to defend any claims. As of yet, I am not aware, and if the Deputy is he might bring it to my attention, of any claims that have been instituted by retired or current members of An Garda Síochána claiming that they sustained injuries as a result of the presence of asbestos in Garda stations. If that is the case, it would obviously be a serious matter from the point of view of both An Garda Síochána and the State. The Deputy mentioned that the State Claims Agency indicated in a subsequent report from 2017 that if it was the case it would be difficult to defend any such claims. I cannot comment in respect of that, but it is certainly the case that if claims were put in and there was liability on the part of the State, I would then ask that the State, in line with the Attorney General's guidelines, would adopt a very principled approach to that. For any member of An Garda Síochána who sustained an injury, which was caused as a result of the known presence of asbestos in the building that exposed that Garda to danger, there would then have to be a liability on the part of the State for that.

The Deputy also mentioned the asbestos directive. I am not trying to diminish my responsibility but I am conscious there are a lot of issues on my desk in respect of An Garda Síochána. The Deputy raised an issue from 2016. I will look at the report, but ensuring that the directive is transposed into Irish law is an obligation we have under European law. We would have to ensure that it is complied with. I will inquire what the level of safety in An Garda Síochána is, but I have not got direct complaints in respect of concerns that members of An Garda Síochána have from working in the stations. I have met the GRA on many occasions. In fact, I met a representative of the GRA last Monday. It is the case that this issue has not been brought to my attention, but I will look at the report. I thank the Deputy for bringing it to my attention.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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It is very difficult for there to be claims when there is no awareness. How could there be claims if people were not aware that these buildings had high levels of asbestos?

How could there be claims? How did they even know? I repeat that the head of the State Claims Agency said that unless remedial work was undertaken, the State Claims Agency would be unable to defend future claims. That leads me to believe there has already been a claim. This report was done by the State Claims Agency, An Garda Síochána and the OPW. Very little has happened and the State has been exposed to claims. Gardaí, contractors and, possibly, members of the public have been exposed, who are not aware and may have been ill. How could they make a claim if they were not aware and did not know they were exposed? Does this not create a huge risk which the Minister needs to put close to the top of his pile as regards issues the Commissioner has not told him about? I read recently that the Minister said he can only ask questions. Perhaps he needs to have a truth and reconciliation meeting with the Commissioner. Perhaps he needs to sit down and say, "Hey, Commissioner, do you know what, you are out the gap on 1 September. Is there anything else in the long list of issues you have not told me about?" Perhaps he should say, "As Minister, I should not have to ask the question." He should tell the Commissioner, "There is a thing called section 41 where you have to tell me things. Maybe you should have told me about this. Maybe this is an exposure of the State. Maybe I should have known. Why has nothing been done in relation to it?" There are many other issues. I guarantee many still have not been brought to the Minister's attention. I encourage the Minister to have that truth and reconciliation meeting very soon. Otherwise, I will be coming to the House on many more issues he is not bloody well aware of.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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A person is only entitled to take a claim for personal injuries if they have sustained an injury. First, there has to be an injury before somebody can bring a claim and then allege the injury was caused as a result of, in this instance let us say, the presence of asbestos. If people have sustained an injury, it will be diagnosed when they go to the doctor and complain about a specific illness. That diagnosis will be of assistance to an individual if they are told they are suffering from asbestos exposure. Most people will look around to see where they have been and what could have exposed them to asbestos.

On a truth and reconciliation meeting with the Commissioner, I have quarterly meetings with him. I meet him regularly. I meet senior management in An Garda Síochána. Prior to my appointment, I was always impressed with the rank and file members of An Garda Síochána and the excellent job they do. Since being appointed as Minister, I have met a lot of senior personnel in An Garda Síochána and I am extremely impressed with them as well in the work they do. The Deputy is perfectly entitled to highlight the issues of concern to him but as Minister for justice and the person who has political responsibility for An Garda Síochána, I have to look at the broader level of work done by the Garda on a daily basis, whether that is the rank and file members of the force out on the streets in the towns, villages and cities of this country or the great work they do in bringing people to justice before the courts. I cannot adopt a myopic approach trying to identify issues which might get some media attention. I have to have a broader assessment of what is in the best interests of An Garda Síochána.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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That is very condescending.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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That is why when I engage with the Commissioner, I probe him. The Deputy has brought things to my attention, which I welcome. When he does that, I say I will raise them with the Commissioner and I do. The same will apply to other Members of this House. I have huge respect for this House. If a Member raises an issue of concern with me relating to the Garda, I will bring it to the attention of the Commissioner and seek an answer.