Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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86. To ask the Minister for Education and Skills to outline her engagement with stakeholders, including trade unions representing teachers, regarding the proposed reforms for the leaving certificate, as of June 2025; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [30862/25]

Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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I would appreciate if the Minister would outline her engagement with stakeholders, including trade unions representing teachers, regarding the proposed reforms to the leaving certificate, as of June 2025, given that last Friday the largest post-primary teacher union in Ireland voted strongly in favour of industrial action over the reforms proposed for September.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I will take it back to what we are discussing, and that is leaving certificate reform. It is important to stress we are living through a period of rapid change and it is essential that we equip children and young people with the skills and competencies they need to succeed and thrive in a changing world. That is a central purpose of senior cycle redevelopment, which builds on junior cycle reform which started to roll out in 2014. Senior cycle redevelopment will also spread the assessment load on students by reducing the focus on high-stakes terminal examinations. Our students are engaged in them at the moment and we wish continued success to all of them.

The introduction of the first tranche of new and revised leaving certificate subjects will take place in September 2025 as previously announced. The approach taken to the redevelopment has always been about collaboration and meaningful engagement with all our stakeholders since this process commenced. Last Friday was only a few days ago, but a huge amount of engagement took place prior to any vote. From December 2024 until early April, my officials met with both unions to discuss senior cycle redevelopment. About eight meetings happened in that regard. In April, I invited the TUI and the ASTI to engage in intensive discussions with my Department to develop a package of supports which could assist schools, teachers and students during the roll-out of the new senior cycle. I had two other engagements with the unions and attended their convention and congress.

Following the six meetings, which were part of the package of supports discussions, my Department and the unions concluded talks with the publication of the measures which were voted on recently. The unions voted on the package of measures and, subsequently, whether industrial action would take place, depending on that outcome. In parallel my officials have engaged with representatives of school management bodies, whose voices helped to inform the above discussions, as well as representatives of school leaders. My officials regularly engage with student representatives, including the ISSU, which I have also met a number of times, and with parent representatives, including the National Parents Council. I have met that body as well. There is also the senior cycle redevelopment partners’ forum, which is chaired by former chief inspector, Dr. Harold Hislop, and is a representative stakeholder engagement group which underpins the necessary collaboration. All of these groups have been met significantly in the last while and that engagement will continue as we continue to roll this out.

Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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I absolutely agree and the Labour Party agrees that reform of the leaving certificate curriculum is necessary. I say that also as a secondary school teacher whose subject, namely, business, will be rolled out in September. It has been just under a week since the vote. Has the Minister spoken to the general secretary of the ASTI since the vote last Friday? There has been an overwhelming majority from the ASTI. Some 68% do not agree with the support measures proposed by the Department and 67% of the 70% turnout of voters stated they are willing to go as far as industrial action to stop leaving certificate reform being implemented in September. This is a clear sign that those on the ground in our classrooms do not agree with leaving certificate reform. Surely the Minister can agree that teachers, who are not in this Chamber and are not policymakers but are the ones teaching the students at the centre of this, do not agree with leaving certificate reform. Does the Minister accept that?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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No, I do not. The Deputy said himself that teachers want leaving certificate reform. It is something they agree with. I point to the fact 73% of TUI members voted in favour of the measures. The ASTI and the TUI engaged very positively with my Department on this package of measures and asked for much of what is in this document. The vote was not on whether they support leaving certificate reform or otherwise; it was on whether they wanted additional supports to enact something they have already agreed to. Both the ASTI and the TUI as part of the public sector pay agreement which was negotiated and agreed in early 2024 signed up to co-operating with senior cycle redevelopment at that stage. A similar commitment is contained in the education sectoral plan, which was agreed in September 2024. All of what we have discussed are additional supports to protect them. To answer the Deputy’s first question, my Department has written to both associations. I noted the outcome of the ballots of both the TUI and the ASTI and have restated that leaving certificate reform will go ahead. It is absolutely essential it does. I have restated that the package of supports which is still on the table for the ASTI is balanced and fair and was brought about by that positive engagement. That package is still there. I want to ensure that students and teachers benefit from those supports, which is something we all want to see happen.

Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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The Minister referred to the TUI. There is a complete divide between post-primary teachers throughout the country on whether or not they have the correct training and whether schools are fully resourced to roll out leaving certificate reform in a mere couple of months' time. I understand packages have been put forward to resource our schools, but we are talking about 100-year-old infrastructure. There are science laboratories that are not resourced and supported and an absence of lab technicians to support teachers. I understand that teachers across the country signed up to this but they were under the pretence that schools would be fully resourced and they would be properly trained. The majority of teachers have no training in AI. The Minister is standing over leaving certificate reform that is 100% going to support children of more affluent families. There is no denying that. They will have the opportunity to receive more grinds, go to external teachers and have better ICT equipment. Children in poor socioeconomic areas will not have those opportunities. Is the Minister willing to stand over that? I cannot believe she is.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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Is the Deputy willing to stand over the current situation? It is already the case that students with more money can access grinds and better supports. What we are doing is actually making it fairer. I had a group meeting recently with people from across different divides, including a woman who works in Maynooth University and comes from a very difficult background where she was not encouraged to go to school or supported at home. She told me not to stop this reform as, for children most at risk of disadvantage, this takes away challenges such as not having supported exam time. These children might be better at practical things and would be better off getting support in classrooms. These are the people I am thinking of.

In respect of AI, it is here now. It a challenge. Students are sitting exams at the moment. We cannot say that no students have used AI in developing studies and things they can learn off and reproduce during an exam. Let us be honest, that can happen. What we need to do-----

Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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The Minister is asking teachers to sign off on that.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I am saying we need to support teachers to embrace AI and we need to make sure they can deal with challenges when they arise. There is more work to do; I appreciate that.

Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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There is no indemnity for teachers.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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Information is being provided and more work is being done. An AI committee will be set up and teachers will be part of it. It is very important we get this right. AI is here to stay and we need to make sure we benefit from it.

Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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The integrity of the exams will be lost.