Dáil debates
Tuesday, 10 June 2025
Ceisteanna ó Cheannairí - Leaders' Questions
2:00 am
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I extend a céad míle fáilte to Aran and Sophie Byrne who are recently married. They are here with their family - love's young dream in the Dáil. I also welcome the Moylagh Historical Society from the royal county. Fáilte romhaibh ar fad.
The Taoiseach repeatedly tells us that fixing housing is his number one priority so people have waited for the big initiative for some idea that he might bring forward to turn the tide of this emergency. God knows, we have enduring the Government's directionless approach since it has come to office, misleading on housing delivery, beds in sheds and the mad cap housing tsar idea really leaving people wondering would it ever bring forward a substantive proposal. Now, finally we have it. The Government has certainly outdone itself this time because its first major action in housing is to enable big landlords to hike up extortionate rents even further. At a time when Government should be acting to cut rents and to ban rent increases and when people across the State fork out, on average, new rent of €2,000 a month - here in Dublin rent can hit €3,000 per month or even higher - instead it creates a new opportunity for tens of thousands of landlords to jack up their rents.
The Government has made much of the intention to extend the 2% cap to existing tenancies throughout the State. It should go ahead and do that. Let us do that this week. It is clear that this measure is, in fact, to hide the Government's blushes as it provides landlords with the chance to hike up rents in the here and now and as it provides yet another sweetheart deal to investment funds to build expensive rental property and charge extortionate rent. That is the real intention of these measures. The Government claims that landlords will only be allowed to reset rent to the market rate if a tenant leaves voluntarily. Well tens of thousands of renters leave tenancies voluntarily every single year. Under the Government's proposals, as one renter walks out the door they will be replaced by another whose rent will have ballooned. Students will be among the first hit by its actions. Finding affordable rental accommodation has been a constant struggle for students and their families. The Government is now ensuring this will be even harder and that students and their families will be ripped off even more every year. Worse still, the Government explicitly allows all existing landlords to reset rent to full market rate every six years. That is essentially the death knell of rent pressure zones.
The plan is not about protecting or giving stability to renters. It is about allowing corporate landlords, vultures and property funds to hike up rents. These are large landlords that have already got sweetheart tax breaks on their rent roll and on their capital gains tax liability. Fianna Fáil on the side of the big boys: who would have thought it? Tá plean ann chun cíosanna ró-arda a ardú níos airde arís. Ní bhaineann sé seo le cíosóirí a chosaint. Baineann sé le brabús na dtiarnaí talún corparáideach a mhéadú chomh maith le brabús na gcreach-chistí agus na cistí maoine.
When one cuts through the verbiage, this is just a plan to hike up rents; some in the here and now, others at a future date. Rents need to be cut, to come down, not to go up. Rent increases should be banned, not facilitated by the Government. The Taoiseach needs to think again because renters have had enough. They cannot pay any more and the Government should not be forcing them into this position.
2:05 am
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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First, I send our deepest sympathies to all affected by the horrific and shocking shooting and killing in Austria. Our thoughts are with all those who have been killed, their families and relatives.
The reforms announced today of the rental sector will strengthen the rights of new and existing tenants in Irish society. That is a central part of the reform. Those reforms have been informed by the Housing Agency review which, of course, stemmed from the Housing Commission report which the Deputy opposite endorsed at the time. All of the parties opposite endorsed the Housing Commission report which pointed to the need for reform of the rent pressure zones. The Deputy opposite and the Sinn Féin party are very disappointed with the announcement today. They condemned it in advance of seeing the detail. Now they have changed tack hurriedly. Last March I was told we were going to get rid of RPZs all together.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Every one of you said it and we are not.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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We are not. What we are doing is extending it. It is becoming a national framework now in terms of rent pressure zones.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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The evidence has pointed to those areas outside rent pressure zones being under pressure because of that very fact so we are correcting that in terms of making it a national protective framework. Existing tenants' rents are capped at 2%.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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What about new tenants?
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy knows that but she says the opposite here. She just tells untruths with abandon-----
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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It is in the press release.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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With abandon---
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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It is in the press release.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Existing tenants' rents will be capped at 2%.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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Department of housing.gov.ie
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is the reality of it and for those with four tenancies and above, there is an effective end to no-fault eviction.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is the bottom line and yet Deputy McDonald comes in, all sound and fury. To a certain extent, there is an incredible incoherence in terms of Sinn Féin policy on housing. Deputy Ó Broin, as the Sinn Féin housing spokesperson, will meet all of the property interests. I have a list again of who he has met lately. On 30 April, Property Industry Ireland and IBEC. He meets them. Why?
Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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He is doing his job.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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For what purpose?
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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For what purpose? To introduce incentives for investors to capitalise apartment construction. Deputy Mary Lou McDonald comes in today and says the Government is only interested in institutional investors.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Her spokesperson has been meeting them on an ongoing basis. Such hypocrisy.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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What about rising rents? Deal with rising rents.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Such hypocrisy will not cut it with the people. The bottom line is this. This is a balanced set of proposals.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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Not for renters, it is not.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Housing Agency report as published had four options. The Government has gone with the option of adapting the existing RPZs because they would expire by the end of the year if nothing was done. This is a strong measure in terms of protection but also in terms of new builds. We need to incentivise future investment in new apartment buildings and housing. I put it to the Deputy that the State is the lead investor at the moment, with €7 billion plus. The Department of finance is saying that we need about €20 billion to get to 50,000 houses per annum for a sustained period of time. Where do people think we are going to get the €20 billion from?
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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Not by charging renters €3,000 per month.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Is anybody seriously suggesting that the State will pony up the €20 billion? Sinn Féin says it will triple social housing, triple this and that without telling us how we are going to get the money. This is very fundamental. We need public sector investment-----
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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We also need private sector investment and we need to protect tenants. The Minister, Deputy Browne, has done that today with his package. It is extremely disappointing to Sinn Féin because it is not what the party thought it would be.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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It is disappointing for renters.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Sinn Féin never anticipated that we would end no-fault evictions by landlords with four tenancies. It never anticipated that we would make it a national protection framework because last March the party declared to all and sundry that the Government was getting rid of it completely.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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That is what you are doing.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is the language they used. It is the language of "exaggerate and exaggerate, tell untruth after untruth and you know what, people might believe us".
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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"People might believe us";-----
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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The Taoiseach is misleading the house and renters.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----that is what Sinn Féin is about. What I am about is solutions.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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We are about protecting renters.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am about solutions.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Sinn Féin is about exploiting the housing problem and crisis to whatever degree possible for its own political advantage.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Thank you, Taoiseach. Deputy McDonald is on her feet. Please, Deputies.
2:15 am
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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What the Taoiseach is about is screwing renters.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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He is about doing it very brazenly and then he wants to try to distract from that fact. He should go ahead and extend the 2% cap across the State. He should do that. We will support him in doing it. I do not think anyone will object to that. However, that does not disguise the actual intent and the effect, in the here and now and in the long term, of what he is about to do.
The rent pressure zone provisions are being gutted. Regarding existing tenancies, let me read the Taoiseach's own words: "All landlords will have the right to reset rent where the rent is below market value at the end of each six-year tenancy." There we have it. Those are his own words. I have raised with him the issue of turnover tenancies, where people voluntarily exit a tenancy. That happens tens of thousands of times every year. I have told him that among the first to be really hit hard with this will be students.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, they will.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Your time is up, Deputy. The Taoiseach to respond.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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This is the import of the Government's proposal. The disappointing thing is everybody knows rents are extortionate at this point. The job of a responsible Government is to ensure a cut in rents and to ban rent increases.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Deputy McDonald, your time is up.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Instead, Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael want to facilitate the jacking up of rents. It is disgraceful.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Government wants to increase the supply of houses to get to 50,000 per annum.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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There is not a chance of that.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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The Deputies either want to hear the answer or they do not.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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The proposals of Sinn Féin, via rent bans or whatever the Deputy has said, would actually reduce supply. The Deputies opposite have no ideas and no solutions. That is their problem and the people saw that last time out. They do not have solutions because they do not accept there is any role for the market at all.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is a fundamental problem in terms of their presentation on this issue.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I stress again that existing tenants' rent will be capped at 2%-----
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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The rent can be reset every six years.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----and the rent of new tenants in new supply will be capped at the CPI level. The caps are retained. The framework-----
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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Has the Minister told the Taoiseach what he is actually doing?
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I did not interrupt the Deputy but this is standard practice for Sinn Féin-----
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I absolutely accept that.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----because Sinn Féin is interested in just throwing untruth after untruth across the House and is not prepared to listen to the truth.
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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It is in the press release.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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You are not the leader yet, Deputy.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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You are not the leader.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputies opposite are into performance; they are not into substance.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I have called Deputy Bacik
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Deputy Doherty, please. Deputy Bacik's time has started.
Ivana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
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I join others in expressing sympathies to all those affected by the school shooting in Austria of which we have just heard news.
Back in February, someone in the Government was briefing the media about a proposed end to rent pressure zones. For years, the Government refused to contemplate designating the whole country as a rent pressure zone. Yesterday morning, the future of the entire RPZ scheme was in question. We were hearing it on the airwaves from the Taoiseach's representatives. However, by bedtime last night, in a screeching U-turn, we learned the whole country is now to become subject to rent pressure laws. Perhaps we should start calling him the Grand Old Duke of Cork because he led his men up to the top of the hill before marching them all the way back down again. It is just a mercy, I suppose - a mercy for renters - that they were not sent over the top.
It really seems the Taoiseach is making it up as he goes along. As Deputy Sheehan, our housing spokesperson, said, there are more holes in the policy announced today than there were in the Titanic. It is a panicked pronouncement. It may be he is doing this because he is responding to the latest findings that house-building contracted during May and we are seeing a fall in activity by Irish construction firms. None of this is the fault of renters. Rather, we can see an ominous slowdown in construction largely due to the sort of kite-flying we have heard from many in Fianna Fáil, suggesting that developers might get tax breaks if they wait a few months until the next budget. In fact, what we are seeing are policies from the Government that appear to be ad hoc, are sowing fear among renters and are sowing uncertainty among investors.
Meanwhile, each month, more and more people, and more and more children, are finding themselves homeless. We know that eviction from the private sector is a key driver of increased homelessness. We are all hearing today from renters in desperate fear. I heard this morning from a constituent in her 40s that she is absolutely devastated by the announcement on RPZ changes. She fears her landlord will terminate her lease and she believes she will have to leave Ireland because she cannot afford €2,500 to €3,000 per month in rent. Her story is not unique. Her fear is reflected across the country because renters in Ireland know renting is like a lottery or, more accurately, a casino.
The wins are rare and somebody else is always making a quick buck. The Taoiseach's party and Fine Gael have been in government together for the best part of ten years and things have only got worse for those renting or seeking to buy an affordable home. We all agree that supply is the biggest problem, yet instead of taking urgent steps to address this, we are seeing this extremely vague and opaque policy that the Taoiseach says will strengthen renters' rights but which, as we are hearing from renters and those who work day to day on the front line assisting and supporting renters, will have the opposite effect, while there is uncertainty among investors as to precisely how they are to be incentivised to build the homes we know are so desperately needed. We all know that when rents go up, people can no longer afford to pay them and will, therefore, face being evicted and homelessness. What safeguards is the Taoiseach going to put in place for those likely to be "constructively evicted" by landlords anxious to hike rents under these new rules?
2:25 am
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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There are two things. First, Fianna Fáil has been in government for five years, not ten. That is a fact. Second, Deputy Bacik said people were briefing at the end of February. They were not briefing. What happened was that I went public and said there would be reform and that there would have to be change. I made a general statement saying that we would have to attract private sector investment. All of the Opposition deliberately distorted that and the Deputy declared that it was the end of RPZs, when ending RPZs was never contemplated. The legislation was expiring at the end of this year. All of the Opposition endorsed the Housing Commission's report. Read it. It said that the Dáil was too reactive and that too many short-term decisions were taken in the last Dáil.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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It said the Government was too reactive.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I did not interrupt the Deputy. He does not own the place. He should have the decency to allow an exchange between me and the Labour Party leader. He has not assumed the status of leader yet and may not for a long time to come.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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Thousands of children in homelessness. That is not decency.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Deputy Ó Broin cannot continually interrupt.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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The fundamental point is that as a result of these packages, we have a national framework of protection. Existing tenants will keep the RPZ at 2%. If we get new builds, which is what we want to do, new tenancies will be capped at the CPI. The protections from no-fault evictions by landlords with four tenancies or more are very significant, and there are other protections and there will be other safeguards. What is emerging is probably the strongest set of rent protection measures we have ever had in the history of the State.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is the reality. If we forget all the noise, the sound and fury and go through it detail by detail, this is a well-balanced package. We are talking about all existing tenants staying at 2% as per the existing RPZs, which the Opposition wanted retained. They are being retained for existing tenants. We do need supply.
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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What happens every six years?
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Surely Deputy Bacik agrees that we need more supply. We need more apartment building and what is needed for that? Certainty. We need policy certainty for renters and investors. That is what this package provides, because we do need private sector investment in apartment building. The final point I would make is that this is but one of a suite of measures that have been taken and are being taken to significantly change the dial in respect of both private sector investment and public sector investment, which we have already announced since the beginning of the year, at up to €800 million worth. Up to today, 83% of all tenancies are within RPZs. We are extending that to 100%. These are good measures. Surely Deputy Bacik should acknowledge that. I do not think she expected it. That is the problem. She declared that it was going to be the end of the RPZs and that is the problem with the Opposition. It has been caught out.
Ivana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
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The reality is that many of the Taoiseach's own-----
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Before Deputy Bacik starts, we have a full Public Gallery. I am asking all Deputies in the House to be respectful. This is Leaders' Questions. It means each party gets to ask a question. If Deputies are happy heckling during the answer, I will let them off. I do not see the benefit. We will have a three-and-a-half-hour debate on housing later this afternoon. Could Deputies be respectful of one another and we will get through the work? We have an agenda until midnight. Could everybody please stick to their time?
Ivana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
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We can all agree that certainty, clarity and consistency are needed for those renting, those looking to buy a home and those looking to build and develop homes.
That is precisely what is lacking in the Taoiseach's own Government's policy. He is accusing the Opposition of being caught out but he has caught out his own backbenchers. He has flip-flopped on policy on rent pressure zones, RPZ, and protections for renters. None of us can see how he can say there will be increased protections for renters. Sure, the Government is extending the RPZs but if it is hollowing out what is meant by an RPZ and reducing protections for those within them, then that does not have the desired effect.
Again, renters are desperately fearful. One thing that has not been mentioned is the idea of tying rent caps to inflation which Government is proposing for new builds. This lacks foresight. There is huge uncertainty here, particularly in the face of Trump's threatened tariffs and the impact they are likely to have on inflation. What we are going to see, I think, is that this will gut the net benefit of the Taoiseach's stated objective, which is to increase supply. We all want to see supply increase but we do not believe this is an effective way to do it.
2:35 am
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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If the Deputy reads the Housing Agency report - and I invite her to do so in its entirety - and looks at the ESRI analysis of the rental market, in reviewing both the domestic and international literature and so on, she will see there has been a negative impact, particularly in 2021, on measures we took on supply into the residential market. That is in the report. There must be a balance. I take it the Deputy wants investment into the private sector. If one does not tie it or give people certainty about the CPI, why would anyone invest in the future if they could endure a loss? People are not going to do that. We need a bit of practical reality here. That is the point. The balance has to be right and we have got that balance right while protecting tenants to an even greater degree-----
Ivana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
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Where is the protection?
Conor Sheehan (Limerick City, Labour)
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Where is the protection?
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----than had been the case, on top of protections which we brought in over the past number of years. Over the past number of years stronger and stronger protections have been brought in for tenants and renters. That will continue under this measure and will be even stronger again in return-----
Ivana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
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There are 15,000 are homeless.
Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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I also extend my sympathy to those affected by the school shooting in Austria.
The Taoiseach was right about one thing; I did not expect these proposals. That is because at no stage in recent months, weeks or even today, until the press release was issued earlier, was there any mention by Government in all its spin that what it is actually introducing here - and the Taoiseach has not even acknowledged it himself in his comments as he seems to be ashamed of it, and rightly so - is that every six years, rent regulation as we know will be effectively gone and landlords can fully up the rents.
Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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The Taoiseach can talk about his 2%, inflation and all the rest of it but if people are going to face astronomical rent increases they cannot afford every six years, Government will drive more people into homelessness. In a country where rents are already incredibly high - among the highest in Europe - the Taoiseach will only make things worse. Will he admit that in the last bullet point of his press release issued today, he is allowing full rent increases up to any level - up to market levels - across the board to any landlord and tenancy affecting any renter? That is what these proposals are about.
"Government policy to increase rents" are not my words; they are the words of homeless charity, Focus Ireland, in describing Government proposals. What Government has done - while we have incredibly high rents here already - is brought forward a proposal to make that situation even worse. It is throwing renters under the bus. Incredibly, Government is planning even more favourable treatment for vulture funds than already exist. These funds currently pay almost no tax and charge some of the highest rents in the country. Now, when it comes to rent regulation, Government is rolling over for them yet again. It is allowing investment funds that control the entire rental stock in an area to jack up rents to what they determine is a market rent every six years. These funds have so much control, they will often be able to decide and determine what a market rent is in an area. Who is in charge here? Is it the Government or the vulture funds?
Homelessness is already at record levels. There are 15,580 people living in homeless emergency accommodation. That includes 4,775 children who are growing up without a home. These proposals of incredible rent increases will drive more families and children into homelessness. How could Government contemplate doing this when homelessness is already at record levels?
In terms of this work the Government has done and these proposals it has put forward, has Government assessed the impact of these proposals? If it has assessed it, will it publish that assessment? Does the Taoiseach know, as a result of these changes, how much rent will be increased and how many more people will be driven into homelessness?
2:45 am
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Existing tenancies are capped and will remain capped at 2%.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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That is not what it says in the report.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, that is what it says.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Ó Broin will have a chance later. The fundamental objective is twofold: policy certainty and protection for renters and increased supply. I respect Deputy O'Callaghan's commitment and interest in this, but he and his party have been very weak on the supply side. All of its proposals over the past three years, cumulatively, would reduce supply and do nothing to increase it. We have a fundamental challenge as a society. We need 50,000 new houses per annum. We are at approximately 30,000. It might be higher this year; we do not know. It is 30,000 plus. Back in 2019, it was 20,000. State investment has largely brought it up to approximately 30,000 houses plus. We need significant private sector investment. The overall investment required is approximately €20 billion to get to 50,000. That will not be provided by the State alone. Institutional and pension funds have a role. The Deputy's party may say they do not. I do not see how else to get to 50,000 new units. He might call them vultures. That is part of the problem in the political narrative. It has undermined the entire debate on housing. Pension funds invest and the State invests and will invest more. We are investing at an unprecedented level, from a State point of view. If we look at the table, the majority of landlords or people who rent out are not institutional investors. In fact, over the past three or four years, there has been precious little institutional investment of the scale required. The vast majority are tenancies of four, three, two or one in the rental market. We need a more dynamic and sustainable rental market for the future. This package facilitates that and gives certainty to enable more investment in addition to keeping all those in the market at the moment. It cannot all be replaced by 100% State-constructed or State-rented housing. We do a lot on rent through the housing assistance payment, HAP, local authority rents and so on.
The Taoiseach: The fundamental objective is twofold - policy certainty for renters and protection and icnreased supply. I respect Deputy O'Callaghan's commitment and interest in this matter but hbis party has been are very weak on the supply side. All of its proposals over the past three yeras cumnulatively would reduce supply and do nothing to increase it. We have a fundamental challenge as a society. We need to get to 50,000 new houses per annum. We are at approximately 30,000. It might eb higher this year; we do not know. It is more than 30,000. Bacin in 2019, it was 20,000. Ths State investment has largely btrough it up to approximately 30,000 houses or more. We need signficant private sector investment. The voeral investment required is approximately €20 billion to get to 50,000. That wll not be provided by the State alone. Instituional and pension funds have a role. Your party may say it does not. I do see how you get to 50,000 new units. You might call them vultures - that is part of probelm in teh political narrative. It has undermined the entire debate on housing. There are pensions funds that invest,t he STeta invests and will invest more. We are inversting at a unprecented level. If one looks at the table, the majority of landlords or people who rent out are not instutional investors. Over past three or four years, there has been precious little instituional ivnestment of the scale required. That vast majority are four, three, two or single tenancies in teh renta. market. We need a more dynamic and sustainable rental market for the future. This package facilaites taht and gives certainty to enable more investment in addition to keeping all those in the market at the moment. All of it cannot be replaced by 100% State-constructed or State-rented housing. We do a lot on rent through teh HAP and local authoirty rents and so on.
Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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You are going to have to do more.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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The involvement of the State is enormous. It has to be balanced and supplemented with significant private sector investment. This is just one measure. On its own it will not do it. It will need to be accompanied by other measures. Last week, we took a decision to legislatively roll over planning permissions that might have been delayed by judicial reviews to keep supply going. It has to be about supply. From the Opposition in general, proposals on the supply side have been extraordinarily weak and not forthcoming on how to get from 30,000 a year to 50,000 a year.
Conor McGuinness (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Your delivery on the supply side has been weak.
Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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Time and again, we have put forward proposals to increase supply and financing, most recently with regard to leveraging some of the savings on deposit in Ireland and incentivising how they could be invested in housing. Pension funds in other countries invest in housing that is affordable. The Government is creating a system in which rents just go up and up, beyond people's reach. That is the difference. The Government's press release from just over an hour ago states, "All landlords will have the right to reset rent where the rent is below market at the end of each six-year tenancy". Is the press release wrong? The Taoiseach has not commented on the ability of all landlords to reset rent every six years. He keeps brushing around about 2% and inflation. Will he answer that? Is the press release wrong? Why is he not commenting on it? Is he ashamed of what is in the press release? Why does he keep talking about everything else but that this is a measure to effectively abolish rent regulation as we know it? It will allow astronomical rent increases that people simply will not be able to afford and will push more and more people into homelessness.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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First, the one proposal the Deputy's party has come forward with is the savings incentive scheme.
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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Answer the question.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I will answer the question.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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The scheme the Social Democrats came forward with would take years to accumulate the funding for investment. It would not produce a single house over the next three to four years.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Answer the question.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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In respect of Finland, the Deputy is correct.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Answer the question.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am answering the question.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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It is not your question, Deputy McDonald, please.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Deputies, I told you, it is not your question; it is Deputy O'Callaghan's.
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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He did not answer our question either.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Taoiseach, continue, please.
2:55 am
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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He has been asked three times.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Three points were made. I am going to deal with them. The second one was on institutional investment. Finland is a good example of where institutional investment had a huge impact on house construction and apartment construction.
Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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You are skipping the first one.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Your press release, Taoiseach.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Third, Germany is a bad example-----
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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The press release.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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The press release.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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The press release. You are not chairing a committee.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----of where the rent pressure controls the Deputies are advocating created a huge decline well below the market rate. There are many tenancies at the moment-----
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Well below the market rate.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----well below the market rate. If some tenant exits-----
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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I asked a question about a Government press release.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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If a tenant exits that-----
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Thank you, Taoiseach. Your time is up.
Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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Your time is up. Go on, you are out of ideas.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Ceann Chomhairle, there has been repeated interruption-----
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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There has been, Taoiseach.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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If there had not been interruption, I could have dealt with all four points.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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Just answer the question.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I call Deputy Paul Murphy.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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He is ashamed. He is ashamed of his own policies.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Deputies, if you cannot allow anyone to ask or answer a question-----
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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-----this is where we end up.
Denise Mitchell (Dublin Bay North, Sinn Fein)
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He is not answering them.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I call Deputy Paul Murphy.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Thanks, Ceann Comhairle. This is an incredible, brazen display by the Taoiseach. It really is.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Three times now the Taoiseach has been asked effectively the same question. I am going to ask it again. It is not clear to me if the Taoiseach does not understand his Government's proposal, he is misleading the House about his Government's proposal or the press statement issued by the Minister, Deputy Browne's Department is inaccurate. The Taoiseach needs to clarify for us which it is, because not just once or twice but about five or six times now he has said existing tenants will be capped at 2%, new tenancies will be capped at CPI and that these are the strongest set of rent protection measures we have ever had. The truth is, if the press statement is accurate, that the Government is absolutely gutting the rent pressure zones. It gets its nice headlines that say rent pressure zones are to extended to the whole country in a significant expansion of tenants' rights when in reality it is getting rid of the rent pressure zones. I will read it for the third time today and very slowly for the Taoiseach: "All landlords will have the right to reset rent where the rent is below market at the end of each six-year tenancy". It is not just new landlords, not just big landlords, not just small landlords, but every single landlord. That means it affects existing tenants and new tenants. If the Minister could inform the Taoiseach what is going on here and what is in the policy, that would be very helpful.
Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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Do you want to phone a friend?
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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It is what it says in the press statement. It states: "All landlords". What the Government is therefore saying to existing and new tenants - all of them - is they get the limited protection of the 2% or CPI if is new, for six years. At six years it is a free for all. Landlords get to reset to market rate. There will be six 2% increases and then 40%, 30% or an unimaginable level that is simply not affordable. That is what the press statement-----
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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No it does not.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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It is. I will read it again. It does say that. As part of this master of the spin, it also says "Tenancies of unlimited duration to be enhanced by introduction of rolling-six year tenancies ...". That is some enhancement, Taoiseach. You are getting rid of tenancies of unlimited duration and going back to the old system of rolling six-year tenancies. What you are presenting is Orwellian. The logic of this is the Government wants rents to rise. It is not enough that they have doubled over the past ten years. It is not enough that a third of tenants are now paying more than 50% of their net income on rent. It is not enough that more and landlords are actually coming into the market. The Government wants rents to go up even faster. That is why tenants, renters-----
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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-----people who are trying to buy a house, people who are locked out and who are going to be locked out even further-----
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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The Taoiseach to respond.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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-----are going to be on the streets-----
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Deputy Murphy, thank you.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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-----next Tuesday at 6 p.m. in front of the Dáil as part of-----
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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The Taoiseach to respond.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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-----a major Raise the Roof mobilisation to stop this Government and its landlord agenda.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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But the Deputies announced that march before the proposal was even announced.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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That sums it up. The Deputies just change the narrative every time it suits.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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The housing crisis is not new, Taoiseach.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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The bottom line is if you are an existing tenant there will be no change.
Paul McAuliffeMicheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is as simple as that. There will be no change if you are an existing tenant, okay.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Please allow the answer.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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There is no reset at six years for an existing tenant. However, if-----
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Please, you ask for clarity. Deputies, please.
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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That was a quick U-turn. How long did that take, 35 minutes?
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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New tenancies, new builds and new apartments that will come on stream, hopefully, because this is about supply. With the greatest respect in the world, if we had adopted half of what Deputy Murphy proposed we would have no supply at all in the market. That is the fundamental difference. We need more apartments, we need more houses and we need more in the rental market.
In many instances, when the RPZs originally came in, many people were still well below market rates. If a tenant exits voluntarily and leaves, the tenancy can then reset to market rate. In my view that is reasonable.
3:05 am
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Tens of thousands every year. Watch that now. Watch that bubble.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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When RPZs came in first, many people did not increase their rents. Quite a number did not. To keep momentum in the market and to keep people in the market, that is a balanced response to the current situation. We want to bring more investment in to build-----
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Do you want to keep people in their homes?
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is capped at 2%. The second cap is CPI. Basically, there is a cap of whatever the inflation rate is. The inflation rate is forecast to be 2%, on average, for the next number of years. It is also the focus of the ECB to keep inflation at 2%.
Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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It is 9% at the moment.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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If we do not tie it to CPI and freeze it as the Deputy is saying, why would anyone invest in any new apartment block? Why would anyone build a new house or a new apartment for rent if effectively they would begin to lose money within a couple of years? No one is going to make an investment decision on the basis, as the Deputy is proposing, that we have a rent freeze for three years or longer. No one is going to invest in a market where essentially they invest knowing they will be losing money fairly quickly. The package is about getting a balance to incentivise investment into the rental market, while protecting existing tenants who will not see an increase in their rent. No matter how much the Deputy shouts that, they will not have an increase in their rent above the 2%, which is part of the RPZ and has been for quite a number of years.
That is the position. I think these are balanced measures. No doubt the Deputy thought he would be fighting a different sort of proposal. He announced ages ago that we were getting rid of the RPZ. We are not getting rid of the RPZ.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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What is this? This is extraordinary.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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We are extending it, making it national and giving stronger protections than tenants had before this package, which will be legislated for, was announced.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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It is not me suggesting it. The Government's own press statement refers to a right to reset. It is not just in a written press statement; it is also what the Minister, Deputy Browne, told the media. At the press conference earlier he said what happens is that at the end of the six years, the rate-setting piece - effectively the rent - could be put back to the market in line with what the press statement says.
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Not for existing tenancies.
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Not for existing tenancies.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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So new tenancies are going to be every six years.
Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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He did not say that.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is what I said.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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It is not what you said, and it is not what your-----
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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You deliberately-----
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Taoiseach, please. You will have an opportunity.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Deliberately? You are the one-----
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It is in black and white.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Taoiseach, you have the press statement.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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It is Deputy Murphy's question.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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The Taoiseach defends the idea that if tenants leave during the six-year period and it is not a no-fault eviction, it can be reset. The Taoiseach is saying he is in favour of that, and it is not a mistake. Any time a tenant leaves, the rent can be reset.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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That is a recipe for rocketing rents. How high does he want rents to go?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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The Taoiseach to respond.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Deputy Murphy, your time is up.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Let me finish the point. It is also a recipe for constructive evictions, where the landlord says, "I am not going to fix your heating", "I am not going to fix your toilet" and "I am going to force you out so that I can reset the rent." The final thing I ask is for the Taoiseach to agree-----
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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-----that when it comes to voting on this, landlords in this Dáil-----
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Deputy, resume your seat. I am not going to allow you to continue to speak. Your time is up.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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-----should not have a vote on this measure, given their interest in it.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is interesting that in the exchange the Deputy acknowledged that it is new tenancies.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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No, I did not. I was just pointing this-----
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I have been saying since I came in that existing tenants would not have their rents increased beyond 2% as per the RPZ.
Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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Until their tenancy ends.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputies are interrupting because they do not like the facts. The bottom line in respect of new tenancies is yes, in respect of tenancies where the tenant has left so the tenant does not get exorbitant increases. The balance here is that we need more investment into the market. I know the Deputy does not really believe in that.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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I believe in a State construction company.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy believes it should be the State in its entirety. That is a fundamental difference. I argue that if we were to take the Deputy's policies, we would have no new supply at all. That is a fundamental difference. I acknowledge that. The Deputy does not believe in a market-based economy. That is his position.
Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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When is a rent too high?
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I happen to believe in a balanced economic framework where you have public sector investment, and we have unprecedented levels of State investment. However, you will need private sector investment to get the level of investment we require. I do not think the State can sustainably spend €20 billion per annum on housing alone. That will not suffice. I do not think the people want that sort of approach either.