Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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82. To ask the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform his views on the increased level of privatisation and outsourcing in the provision of public services, its effect on cost overruns and outcomes for citizens; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [28802/25]

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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What controls and monitoring are in place for the runaway train of public money being used to outsource and privatise public services?

Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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My Department works to serve the country, its people and the Government by delivering well-managed and well-targeted public spending, delivered through modernised, effective and accountable public services.

The process around outsourcing set out in the public service pay agreement states that where outsourcing is being considered in respect of an existing service, both official and staff sides will consult on the development of a service plan which evaluates and compares the in-house service and the outsourcing option. The public service pay agreement 2024-2026 reaffirms the commitment to the above and states that where a dispute arises through the application of this process, parties will seek to resolve it through direct dialogue. Where this fails to resolve the dispute, parties will use the dispute resolution mechanism set out in chapter 5 of the agreement. Accordingly, where a dispute arises, it will be subject to a six-week period of initial bilateral engagement at local level between the parties. Where agreement cannot be reached, the dispute will be referred to the WRC or, if necessary, the Labour Court. Where a conciliation or arbitration scheme applies, the issue will be referred within six weeks to the conciliation machinery under the scheme and, if unresolved, to the arbitration board. The Labour Court or arbitration mechanism is the final stage in the dispute resolution service.

My Department has been responsible for a number of recent reform initiatives, including the Better Public Services strategy, which aims to deliver inclusive, high-quality and integrated public service provision. Better Public Services is aligned with the ten-year strategy for the Civil Service, Civil Service Renewal 2030, which is built on three core themes: digital first and embedding innovation; workforce, workplace and organisation of the future; and evidence-informed policy and services. It is also aligned with Connecting Government 2030: A Digital and ICT Strategy for Ireland’s public service.

There are no functions, roles or services within my Department that were outsourced to the private sector which were previously carried out by civil servants.

To speak more generally on the scale of recruitment of public servants, over the past five years we have seen an extensive and positive expansion in the numbers of public servants across many areas of remit, and rightly so. If there are any changes, there is a process under the public pay agreement to manage them.

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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I thank the Minister for the answer, which was really about the industrial relations processes around agreements and outsourcing. I am asking what financial controls and monitoring are in place. There is a myriad of examples of what should be public services being outsourced with detrimental outcomes for the users. We saw this week the National Treatment Purchase Fund has created perverse incentives. There are hundreds of examples of these. Emergency care for vulnerable teenagers is one. There are private companies getting contracts of between €10,000 and €15,000 per week to provide one placement with staff that are not trained in accommodation where there is no cutlery in the kitchens, where the bedsheets are not cleaned and where the teenager is brought to the Centra every evening to buy a chicken roll for dinner. Companies are making huge money from this service that should be provided by the State. Emergency measures are put in place and, years later, are still in place. What controls are there are on this misuse of public money which should be providing high-quality services that people need?

Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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All public bodies are obliged to treat public funds with care and to ensure the best value for money is obtained wherever public money is spent or invested. It is the responsibility of the relevant Department to ensure procedures are in place for compliance with all required procedures within the Department or office or the bodies under its aegis. It is a matter for each Accounting Officer with the associated agencies to ensure compliance with the Public Spending Code, public financial procedures and relevant circulars and to ensure value for money and appropriate consideration of alternative options. They also need to take account of the requirement 8.25 of the 2016 code of practice for the governance of State bodies, which requires an annual report on adherence to the relevant procedures and the Public Spending Code.

On the leasing of services generally through service level agreements and State provision of services, the issue of external service delivery was covered in Building Momentum, the public service agreement. In that agreement, the parties reaffirmed their commitment to the appropriate use of direct labour, where consistent with efficient and effective public service delivery. The provisions of recent public service agreements relating to external service delivery will continue to apply.

I cannot speak to the specific examples the Deputy referenced except to say the trend of public service recruitment in the past five years has been significant across many front-line areas of public services and we are committed to continuing to drive increased provision of public services in how we frame the budgets in the future.

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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As Minister with overall responsibility for public expenditure and reform, does the Minister see a role for himself in this? This is happening across Departments. I will provide another example, namely, homeless emergency accommodation by private providers. Some are making huge profits and in some instances are providing emergency accommodation where there are bloodstains on the sheets and where people who stay there report being assaulted or robbed by staff who are not properly trained. We see it in social care and home care for elderly people. It has been outsourced and privatised. People are paid poorly and not getting proper conditions. That then affects the older person or person getting the service. It is not just an industrial relations issue, although that is important. There has been in recent years more and more outsourcing of key services that should be provided directly with good value for money and good quality. This is happening across multiple Departments. Is there anything the Minister can do?

Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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Some of the examples the Deputy references are shocking. Where there is maltreatment or misuse of public funds, it should be reported to the Accounting Officer, Department and line Minister involved. There are often service level agreements that underpin the money put forward for the service to be provided. If it is not being provided or the public good is being undermined or not followed through in the context of the service level agreement, that should be reported and there should be full accountability through the relevant Department or Accounting Officer. The objective in the development of many services is good public services, led by increased recruitment across the public sector. There are instances where a particular Department or agency, because of an issue that might arise, requires a service level agreement to be stood up but that should be complied with. The dignity and protection of vulnerable people is essential within that. Any instances of people not being treated appropriately should be reported and the service level agreement adhered to in full in the context of what was meant to be provided to the individuals involved.