Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Most Irish people do not realise that the Central Bank of Ireland is involved in the sale of Israeli war bonds and will be horrified to learn that the Central Bank provides Israel with the permission or approval it needs to sell these war bonds throughout the European Union. No other European central bank provides this permission. It is given here, in Ireland, on the watch of the Government.

These bonds, to be clear, are used by Israel to raise the money to pay for the missiles, tanks, guns, drones and bombs it uses every day to slaughter tens of thousands of men, women and children in Gaza, lay hospitals, homes, schools and universities to rubble and terrorise the refugee population of Gaza. Israel does not hide the purpose of these bonds. It emphasises "the crucial role of Israel Bonds during this time of conflict and war". Israel openly invites people to invest in genocide.

The Sinn Féin Bill, to be voted on tonight, would enable the Government - the Minister for Finance - to prevent the Central Bank of Ireland giving these permissions or approvals to sell these bonds. It would force Israel to seek that permission from another country and, of course, it would then be for other countries to stand up and be counted and to say "No". Ireland would be clear, however, that it would not longer happen in our name through our Central Bank. It is a disgrace that the Government opposes this Bill.

Last night, the finance Minister, Deputy Paschal Donohoe, in a shameful speech, gave the water-weak, mealy-mouthed and baseless excuses for the Government's opposition to the legislation. The Minister stated that he is advised that the Bill might be judged inconsistent with EU law. That is bogus. We have over 20 pages of independent, robust legal opinion clearly stating that the Bill is compliant with Irish law, European law and international law.

The Minister, Deputy Donohoe, stated the Bill would step outside the EU financial services legislation. That is bogus. The Minister should know that Ireland is fully entitled under EU law to unilaterally restrict access to our financial services and that we are legally entitled to make that decision on public policy grounds, including pursuing our international law obligations. The Government has no sound legal advice on these matters and the Minister and Government scramble for cover and excuses not to act.

The Minister then went on to sound the alarm against Ireland acting unilaterally in prohibiting the Central Bank of Ireland from giving permissions to Israel to sell its war bonds. Of course, only the Central Bank of Ireland gives these permissions and approvals for the sale of Israeli war bonds so, by definition, the Irish Government must unilaterally remove these permissions and approvals. What the Taoiseach calls unilateral action is actually called leadership in defence of human rights.

The Government's reasons for opposing the Bill are exposed as bluff. The emperor has no clothes. It is precisely the tactic the Taoiseach has used to delay and hollow out the occupied territories Bill. Caithfidh an Rialtas an cead atá tugtha ag Banc Ceannais na hÉireann, a ligeann d’Iosrael a chuid bannaí den chinedhíothú a dhíol fud fad an Aontais Eorpaigh, a bhaint.

This is a moment for Ireland to take firm decisive action against Israel's genocide in Gaza, drop the Government's opposition to the Bill and vote tonight to end the permissions given to Israel by the Central Bank of Ireland to sell its genocide bonds.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy said this is a moment for the Government to articulate its leadership in human rights, or words to that effect. The Government has been demonstrating its leadership in human rights for quite some time and since this war began, consistently and strongly. We have been consistent in our support of the Palestinian people and their right to self-determination and in condemning the war crimes and genocide occurring right now in Israel.

We have provided strong humanitarian support, but also political support, to UNRWA, which Israel has sought to undermine. We have done that consistently, not only as an individual country but in persuading other member states of the European Union to do likewise when UNRWA was under attack from the Government of Israel. We have worked with others to evacuate sick child from Gaza for treatment and care on an ongoing basis.

This day last year, Ireland, along with Spain and Norway, recognised the State of Palestine. Slovenia followed. We did that in partnership with the Arab states, despite being harangued and attacked by the Deputy on this very issue. We knew what we were doing well in advance. We tried to get as many countries as we possibly could on board and to persuade as many other EU member states. We did not get as many as we wanted at the time and we did it as part of a peace process.

On 19 July 2024, the International Court of Justice delivered an advisory opinion on the legal consequences arising from the policies and practices of Israel in the occupied territories, including East Jerusalem, and the Attorney General, on behalf of the Government, made a submission to the court in respect of this. We had made a written submission and the Attorney General followed up. We subsequently co-sponsored a resolution, adopted by the UN General Assembly on 18 September, which seeks to implement the court's advisory opinion.

Ireland intervened in South Africa's International Court of Justice case against Israel under the Genocide Convention. Again, the Deputy attacked us in advance of that, wrongly and in an ill-informed way because she just saw it as politics. We did it substantively, with capacity and in an informed legal way and we are hoping that we will broaden the criteria by which genocide is judged by the Genocide Convention. Please do not lecture me on the Irish Government's commitment to human rights and to the rights of Palestinians to self-determination, which will continue.

We are progressing legislation on the occupied territories Bill. I know what will happen as soon as that is passed. The Deputy will say what she has said about everything else we have done - that it was just symbolic at the time and her party now wants action again. I have listed all the action. There is a pattern here, which is to try to drive a wedge-----

Seán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)
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We are pushing it.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----between the Government, the Opposition and the people of Ireland in respect of what Israel is doing in Gaza and undermine the integrity, commitment and good faith of the Government. The Deputy bandies around words such as "facilitate" and "complicit in" genocide, which are false. There is a false narrative being peddled by the Deputy.

The latest now is this issue of the Central Bank's role in issuing prospectuses. The Deputy and I know that the Central Bank does not approve, issue, sell or oversee the sale of Israeli bonds. The Deputy knows that-----

Seán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)
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You facilitate it.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----but the truth does not matter in this. The issuer, the State of Israel or the Israeli Government, does not become regulated. We are not regulating or endorsing anything.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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We are authorising it.

Seán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)
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You facilitate it.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Allow the answer.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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As soon as night follows day, when this happens something else will come on the agenda.

A Deputy:

Is the Taoiseach to let everything go?

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I would love to get to the bottom of it because it is unworthy. We should be seeking to work together to see how best we can persuade Israel and how best the international community can.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I am happy to tell the Taoiseach how.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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An rud is tábhachtaí ar fad ná-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Go raibh míle maith agat, a Thaoisigh.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----gur chóir go mbeadh an Tigh aontaithe i gcoinne an méid atá á dhéanamh ag Iosrael.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Níl aon freagra agatsa.

The Taoiseach is right on one score. I have a very long and established pattern of harassing and haranguing successive Irish taoisigh and Governments for their inaction on Palestine. I will grant the Taoiseach that. By the way, it is a pattern that I intend to pursue for as long as Israel acts with impunity and for as long as there is genocide and an occupation in Palestine.

The Central Bank approves the prospectus which enables the sale of these war bonds. We want that to stop. It is as simple as that. Our legislation enables the Government, through the Minister, to put a stop to that. The Central Bank and the Irish State should have no hand, act or part, however minor, in facilitating the sale of those bonds. That is what we want.

The Government has no legal basis for opposing our legislation.

It is compatible with EU, Irish and international law. The Taoiseach needs to act now. It is very telling that, at a time when a genocide is playing out live before the eyes of the world, the priority for the Taoiseach is a pat on the back for him and his Government. Shame on you. Act and support our Bill.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Children are being slaughtered.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, that is correct.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Innocent civilians have been slaughtered.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Exactly.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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No one in this House should be looking for a pat on the back.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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You are.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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No one in this House should be seeking some sort of moral superiority over others in this House.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Do something then.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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The focus must be relentlessly on the policies of Prime Minister Netanyahu and the Israeli Government, which is made up of extreme far-right elements, who are committing genocide in Gaza right now. Let us call a spade a spade. The Deputy knows the most effective way is-----

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Sanctions.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----to persuade as many member states as possible within the European Union and the United States to pull their support from the State of Israel as regards what it is doing now.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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That is no reason for the Taoiseach not to do what he can do now.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am speaking now.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Deputy McDonald will resume her seat.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I have possession of the House now.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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That is false.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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With respect, stop trying to bully your way-----

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I am not bullying. I am advancing an argument in the face of a genocide.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I have the floor.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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You no longer have the floor, Taoiseach.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am simply saying-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Your time is up.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I will finally say this to you, Deputy.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I call Deputy Ivana Bacik of the Labour Party.

Conor McGuinness (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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It is all about the Taoiseach.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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We need to have rules here in the House and not disruption.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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We have rules and I expect both sides-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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-----of the House to abide them, particularly as regards timing.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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There are also rules regarding answers.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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There are particular rules about interruptions as well.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I appreciate that no interruption should be occurring. I have asked those on both sides of the House to please show decorum.

Ivana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
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I thank all of those across the House who supported Labour's important motion on Gaza today and I thank the Government for not opposing it. I look forward to working with the Government and the Opposition to bring about an end to the suffering and genocide being perpetrated upon the people of Gaza. Ireland has shown leadership but we can do more. We want to work constructively and collectively to do so.

I will raise the issue of housing with the Taoiseach. This Friday, the latest homelessness figures will be published but the Taoiseach's Government is already presiding over a shameful record. There are currently 15,378 people, including 4,675 children, in homelessness. Each number reflects a personal tragedy and a State failure. Evictions from the private sector are driving increased numbers. More homes are urgently needed to address this housing and homelessness crisis but, under the Government's watch, house building commencements are not rising but falling, no-fault evictions are continuing and, worse again, the Government is gutting the tenant in situ scheme, sowing uncertainty about its future. This scheme was supposed to save families from an eviction cliff edge. Applications to the scheme are mired in bureaucracy. It is soul-destroying for people because they know that most of them are doomed to fail. This is true across the country. For example, in the Limerick City and County Council area, more than 107 tenant in situ cases are now on hold. I understand from my colleague Deputy Conor Sheehan that only 20 to 25 such cases, which is a drop in the ocean, are likely to be completed this year. Desperate people are applying when facing eviction, wasting precious time that could be spent searching for somewhere else to live. That policy failure has consequences. Every time we stand in this House, we must recall that the policies we discuss do not exist in a vacuum. They impact on real people, our constituents, neighbours and friends.

I will refer to a letter Deputy Conor Sheehan has shared from a constituent of his. She is a healthcare worker and mother of three. She and her family have lived in their home for nearly 20 years but they are renters and received an eviction notice last year. For months, she attempted to secure her family's future by applying to the cost-rental tenant in situ scheme but the Housing Agency dropped her case just weeks ago. She in ineligible for social housing, the housing assistance payment or the local authority home loan. She cannot apply for the first-time buyer's scheme or the fresh start scheme. She cannot overhold because a criminal conviction would ruin her career. In her heart-breaking letter, she said:

I am still just 2 weeks away from homelessness [...] Everybody has been very kind [...] but nobody is coming back to me with any answers or hope for me and my family. I don’t know what to do.

There are many other families like this who face a cliff edge the Taoiseach promised they would not see. It is an indictment of Government policy. It is in cases like this that the tenant in situ scheme should apply. The Government has been in office for five months and the Taoiseach and his new Minister for housing have done nothing to address the crisis facing this family and others. What will the Taoiseach do for those now facing eviction?

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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The key issue in housing is supply. Everything the Government is doing is and will be focused on increasing the supply of houses right across the board. This includes an increased number of social houses. In the last four years, a record 48,000 social houses have been provided. Not since 2008 has that level of new-build social housing been provided. In addition, we brought in the tenant in situ scheme. Only two months ago, the Minister for housing secured an additional €325 million for that scheme to be used in cases such as that the Deputy has raised. Local authorities are saying they need more funding in addition to that. That is the context of record State funding for the housing issue. There can be no doubt about that. The Minister for housing is engaging with local authorities on specific issues they have raised. In some cases, it is the Minister's contention that cases can be resolved with the funding that has been allocated. He is also engaging with the local authorities on some specific issues they have with regard to acquisitions more broadly.

The scheme was reformed to target it more towards people in arrears who are in immediate danger of becoming homelessness rather than general acquisition. We want the focus and priority to be building more social houses. Some local authorities are better than others at building social houses enthusiastically and proactively. We cannot lose the balance in moving towards more acquisition. That was criticised in this House some years ago as regards the leasing of housing for social housing purposes. We still lease some in addition to the new builds. We also acquire others, particularly in the context of the tenant in situ scheme, which has now been in operation for two and half to three years. It has been very effective and impactful although, in our view, some of the funding was not used in a targeted way or in the way that was originally intended. We will continue to work with the local authorities in respect of the tenant in situ scheme.

Meanwhile, we are also working with approved housing bodies in addition to local authorities to get more social houses built. We are also working with homelessness organisations to get more provided for people who are homeless through the housing first agenda. The homelessness issue is much more complex than it was three or four years ago. Other factors are beginning to play into it.

Ivana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
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Of course, the answer is supply. We all acknowledge that but the issue is that the Government is not doing anything to bring forward supply or to increase the delivery of homes. I watched the Minister for housing give an interview last night. I heard no new ideas to address the situation facing the family I have described, a family who are in the same situation as far too many others. They are facing eviction and a cliff edge and no State support is available to them. They certainly have no housing or alternative place to live available to them in the private sector because of the lack of supply. The Taoiseach spoke about the reform of the tenant in situ scheme but it is not working. I have outlined the figures from Limerick, which are stark. They are replicated across the country. We are all hearing from people who should be able to avail of the tenant in situ scheme but cannot. It is not good enough for the Taoiseach or any of his Ministers to blame local authorities or to say that the funding is there. Central government has not shown the will to address the housing and homelessness crisis. There are families at the sharp edge who are feeling that now and the Taoiseach is doing nothing for them.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Last year, approximately 1,500 houses were acquired in tenant in situ situations. This scheme has only been in place for a very short period of time. There has been a very rapid expansion of the scheme. I am not criticising local authorities. Many availed of the scheme and pushed forward with its delivery.

We saw a record number of new social homes constructed in 2023, as well as local authority and AHB re-lets which are happening every single week. There is a range of options for local authorities in respect of specific tenants or tenants in arrears. The Minister will continue to engage with local authorities specifically on the tenant in situ scheme and acquisitions more generally. We want to move the balance to building more social houses in the medium term but we acknowledge that, in the interim, the tenant in situ scheme continues and funding has been allocated.

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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I recognise the work the Government has done in support for UNRWA and the International Court of Justice and in recognising the State of Palestine, which it did on this day one year ago. There is, however, much more that needs to be done. After the last 12 months, it is unclear how much longer the State of Palestine will actually exist on the map. An entire people, its culture and place are being methodically and systematically erased by Israel. Israel's genocidal campaign of death and devastation has continued for nearly two years with barely a pause and without any sanction. The daily horrors we are witnessing are utterly horrific. People in Gaza cannot feed their families or treat their injured. All the while, a few kilometres away, thousands of trucks laden with aid are refused entry at the border.

Dr. Ali Al Najjar works in Sligo. On Friday morning, nine of his nieces and nephews were killed by Israel. An air strike on the home of his sister, a doctor in Gaza, killed her children while she was working on an emergency ward. Her youngest children were still in pyjamas.

What Israel is doing in Gaza is not just depraved and immoral, it is inhumane, barbaric and illegal. Every time we think we have seen the worst of what Israel can do in terms of cruelty and lawlessness, the situation gets even worse. More than 60,000 people are now dead, most of them women, children and the elderly. A British surgeon working in Gaza has described it as a slaughterhouse. The weapons being used in the slaughter are not just Israeli. They are being supplied by the United States and countries in Europe. Much of the weaponry is being financed by the sale of Israeli bonds. These bonds are explicitly advertised as being crucial to the war effort. Israel is running marketing campaigns imploring people to buy these bonds so they can stand with Israel. Israel Bonds president and CEO Dani Naveh has told potential investors that purchasing the bonds was the best way to help Israel support the war campaign. The sale of these bonds is being facilitated in Europe by the Central Bank of Ireland. Those are the facts. It is also a fact that the Government does not want to do anything about this. Last night, the Minister for Finance, Deputy Paschal Donohoe, shamefully claimed that the Government could not act. He did so even though legal advice from Oireachtas lawyers says it can. This advice states clearly that stopping the sale of these bonds is compatible with the Irish Constitution and EU law and in accordance with international law. The Taoiseach has recognised that what is happening in Gaza is genocide. Ireland has a legal obligation under the genocide convention to do everything we can to stop genocide

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Thank you, Deputy.

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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This applies to all State institutions, including the Central Bank. We must act to stop this genocide. The Taoiseach must act and act now.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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The Deputy's time is up.

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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What is he going to do to stop the sale of these bonds?

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate the Deputy's acknowledgement of certain measures the Government has taken. The Government has acted, as indeed has the Opposition. The Deputy made a very fair point about the State of Palestine today and the question of how one reconstructs a pathway to a two-state solution in the context of the appalling war and genocide being waged by Israel. I am very conscious of the particular family the Deputy mentioned. That case is illustrative of the absolute immorality of this war being waged by the Israeli Government. That nine children in one family could be slaughtered in the manner in which they were slaughtered is beyond any human comprehension.

I have met with groups from Palestine, both Jewish and Palestinian, who work together in the pursuit of peace and who are looking at a one-state approach now. They do not like using the term "one state" but this is in the context of the destruction that has happened, the settlement expansion in the West Bank and the utter destruction of Gaza. Those voices are, however, very lone voices and find it difficult to get critical mass in Israel for pursuing that and trying to see through this horror and destruction.

I believe the most effective way we can bring an end to this - it is challenging because of the history and because of member states' positioning on it - would be if the EU-Israel association agreement could be suspended. That would be a powerful message to Israel by the European Union. While the European Union has been the biggest donor to Palestine, its performance in respect of Palestine as a cohesive body has been shocking.

From the very beginning, Ireland was the first country, with Spain, to say there should be a ceasefire, a release of all hostages and that Hamas had culpability in what it did, and to call for an immediate aid surge. It is hard to comprehend that when we first sought an immediate ceasefire we were lone voices in the European Council. Quite a lot of member states instinctively supported the Israeli position because of history. Perhaps Deputies heard the German Chancellor speak yesterday. He prefaced his remark that he did not understand what the Israeli Government was at by saying a German government has to be particularly careful in how it speaks about Israel. That was illustrative of the history and a sense among some member states that have given Israel a free run essentially in terms of what it is doing.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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What about the war bonds?

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is at that level-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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The Taoiseach's time is up.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----and at the level of the United States Government that the real leverage can happen to get Israel to stop.

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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I do not take away from anything the Taoiseach just said but I asked him about the sale of bonds being facilitated by the Central Bank of Ireland. It is very clear that these bonds are being used to fund the genocide. The Taoiseach has recognised that genocide is taking place and he has an obligation under the Genocide Convention to do everything he can to stop that genocide. The fact is that the genocide is being financed, in part, by bonds being authorised by the Central Bank of Ireland. Clearly, that has to stop now. The Taoiseach and Government can tell the Central Bank to stop facilitating and authorising those bonds.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Hear, hear.

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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Will the Taoiseach do that? Will he answer that question? I am not taking from anything else he is saying or doing but in relation to bonds and the financing of this genocide, will the Taoiseach do everything he can to stop it?

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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On the bond issue, the Central Bank of Ireland is part of the European Central Bank. It is a constituent member of the European Central Bank. We all know that.

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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It acts unilaterally.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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No, it does not act unilaterally on fundamental matters.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Of course it does.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is the reality of Ireland joining the European Central Bank. The Central Bank is independent of the Government, by the way. That is a fundamental point of central banks. Politicians and other political leaders rail against central banks. That is another inconvenient truth-----

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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The Taoiseach could ask the Central Bank to comply with an instruction on this.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Deputy, please.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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It does not sell.

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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It authorises sales.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Yes. It could stop the sale-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is a very narrow area in terms of the prospectuses and whether that would-----

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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What about the sale-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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There are limits. If all of us want to be honest about this - I want to get the right phrase here - we are really on very narrow ground here.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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No, we are not.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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We are, really. This is not as proclaimed. The Central Bank is not facilitating anything-----

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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The Government can stop it.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----or approving bonds or anything like that.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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When Emilia was three years old she had osteotomies on both hips at Temple Street hospital. Her mother felt unduly and inappropriately pressured by the surgeon. It started out with the possibility that she might need one hip done and then it was an absolute necessity to get both done. Emilia was six before she could walk property. She was the slowest to do a cartwheel and the last to ride a bike. She still has pain when she climbs stairs. Her younger sister Hannah was then later in Temple Street with an unrelated eye condition. The same surgeon spotted her and insisted on checking her for hip dysplasia. The mother said that was not necessary as she had been checked at the Coombe hospital and everything was fine, but the doctor insisted.

He logged into the CHI database, looked at the scan and said Hannah needed to get both hips done. The mother did not trust the doctor at this stage. She went back to the Coombe, where the doctor said that was a load of nonsense and that she did not need either hip done. No hip was done. It is a chilling example of what this scandal looks like to parents.

What it looked like inside the hospitals is illustrated by an email sent by then clinical director of Cappagh in November 2023:

Recently, it has become apparent that many children listed for pelvic osteotomies are being cancelled or are having their surgery deferred at short notice, thereby causing inefficiencies on surgical lists. Following a meeting today, I have decided that patients listed for pelvic osteotomies will no longer be discussed at the MDT [multidisciplinary team]. It will be up to the patient's individual consultant to review the X-ray and decide if they wish to proceed.

Surgeries are being cancelled because other surgeons thought they were unnecessary. Instead of saying something was wrong, the clinical director said we will stop discussing them at the MDT and it will be fully in the hands of the original surgeon to decide what he or she would do. That is incredible. What was the motivation for this? If Hannah had been operated on, because they had private health insurance, the surgeon would have made €1,500 for the first hip and another €750 for the second. That is what they would have made for Emilia's two hips. This is an example of the poisonous role of private profit in what should be a public health system.

I have three questions for the Taoiseach. First, why are the surgeons who conducted hundreds on unnecessary surgeries still operating on children? One of them could do an osteotomy tomorrow. Surely they need to be suspended, or, at the very least, stopped from performing osteotomies until the audit is verified. Second, the Government and CHI have publicly committed to independently reviewing all of these osteotomies, but the clinical director of CHI has emailed staff saying, "it is acknowledged that some patients and parents may request a retrospective review of their case to determine the indications for surgery". Does the Taoiseach agree that the onus should not be on parents to request that their cases be reviewed? Finally, does the Taoiseach agree that the review should not be limited to patients from 2010 onward, as is clearly indicated in CHI's statement? The operations started in 2002 and all of them need to be reviewed.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy for raising this issue and the cases of Emilia and Hannah. Will the Deputy confirm that Hannah did not get the surgery?

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Correct.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. I do not want to put too much of a burden on the parent, but the issue should be formally referred to the Medical Council, for example, or to the authorities in CHI. It is important now that the Medical Council takes a role here in terms of the professional regulation of its members.

Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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Hear, hear.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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There is an onus on the Medical Council to be proactive in respect of this issue. I am conscious that it is a random, anonymised sample, although, to paraphrase, the author says there is a preponderance to smaller number of surgeons in this context. I do not know who the clinical director at Cappagh is, by the way, but I know who the clinical director was at that time. That in itself is a serious issue because that seems to be a shutting down of the multidisciplinary team. The multidisciplinary approach is a safeguard against wrongdoing, poor practice or ill-informed decisions because the collective can inform. I have met many consults who say they use collective approach as to whether they will do surgery or not. Medicine is not an exact science. That is why the collective is important. I would be very worried about that email in terms of the suspension of the MDT in respect of assessing the necessity of operations in this area.

I have to be careful what I say. One further report, the Nayagam report, is coming. We do know, on a different case in terms of springs, action was taken with regard to a consultant being put on suspension. There is an issue for CHI as well in terms of it now needs to satisfy itself as an employer and satisfy prospective patients that there is no danger to any future patients and that the environment is safe following the publication of this report. I acknowledge what the Deputy is saying, that, by definition, the publication of the report creates issues with regard to a small number of consultants. That needs to be bottomed out fairly quickly. Obviously, the follow-through and the onus should not be on parents; the Deputy is correct. We now need to do an exhaustive examination. The Minister has already set about that, but has to put an external multidisciplinary team of professionals together to do that review of cases. That would then shed more light on the broader issues in terms of what has already been discovered in the audit with regard to veracity and verifying-----

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Sometimes, when people are discussing this issue, they talk about culture in a disembodied sense, that a culture that was bad existed. Clearly, there was in this case. However, the culture was created by individuals and carried on by individuals. The top surgeons in question were a really big part of this. The question has to be asked in terms of what the motivation was. Was the motivation financial? When I heard the figures, on top of salaries, that consultants receive €1,500 for the first hip and another €750 for the second. These are relatively easy operations for the surgeons to do. The Taoiseach can see how that may have a significant distorting effect on what is happening in our hospitals and proves the basic point that we need to have a proper public health system. I make the point that the email which suspended the MDTs, which was incredible, was cc'd to the senior management at Cappagh. It should have raised a red flag. Clearly, it did not because it then proceeded to happen and the MDTs were suspended.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Thank you, Deputy.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Does the Taoiseach agree that these surgeons should, at the very least, not now be conducting osteotomies? That can be done immediately and needs to be done immediately. The CHI statement is clear-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Deputy, your time is up.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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----- about reviewing operations from 2010 onward being reviewed.

Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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I have said that-----

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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It needs to go back to 2002.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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The Taoiseach to respond, please.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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That is when these operations started.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister has said already in response to that the last evening that she is not ruling out going beyond 2010, but that the priority right now has to be followed through-----

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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I do not want "not ruling out"; I want a commitment.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Let us be sensible about it. The Minister has to deal with those where skeletal maturity applies in terms of the cases that have been the subject matter of the external review, which is about 15 years. For those over that, they are in a transitional programme of care already as they transition to adult care. However, the Minister has said that this can be looked at in the context of getting the first phase done initially.

I wish to make one cautionary note that private healthcare does not mean unethical. Many people who operate and engage in the private sector generally are not unethical. I do not know the reasons as to why this happened. We need to inquire further into the how and the why. Different factors could be responsible for that. I raise the fundamentals. There is an ethical framework to which every doctor is meant to adhere. That has to be the key issue for us to explore.