Pat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister of State for being here at this ungodly hour. I have recently been in contact with a number of dedicated school secretaries across my constituency of east Cork who are campaigning for their rightful access to public service pensions.

Public service pensions are not just a benefit but a vital safeguard for workers' futures and provide security and dignity in later years. Public service status would see secretaries given access to the protections and pensions that come with this status and would end a 45-year injustice. It would see secretaries who work side by side with teachers and special needs assistants, SNAs, having the same rights and pension certainty on retirement, and proper wages. This campaign has been ongoing for decades now. Secretaries deserve better. They are not asking for the earth. All they want is pay equality and the improved working conditions and pensions they are entitled to. Secretaries provide an essential service to their schools, which would simply be unable to function without a secretary. They ensure our schools run smoothly day to day, which is crucial. They are the backbone of our schools. These are hardworking individuals, many of whom have served our schools and communities for decades, and they deserve the recognition and fair treatment of public servants.

Despite recent progress in securing employment on the Department of Education’s payroll, school secretaries still face significant inequalities and continue to be treated as second-class public servants. As it stands, a secretary could work 40 years in the same school, retire on the same day as a teacher or SNA and walk out the door with only a bunch of flowers while the teacher or SNA will leave with a work pension. How can we, in good conscience, justify a system where two people working in the same school and contributing equally to daily life at that school retire under vastly different circumstances? This is not just an administrative oversight but a moral failure. We are sending a message that the work of school secretaries is somehow less valuable and that their commitment, often over decades, does not warrant the same respect and security in retirement as that of others in the public sector.

In October 2020, the then Tánaiste, Leo Varadkar, gave a commitment in the Dáil that the Government would address the long-standing pay and employment issues secretaries were facing and finally secure pay equality and pension entitlement for school caretakers and secretaries. We have not had sight nor sound of this since.

To the school secretaries and all those involved in this campaign we in Sinn Féin say your efforts are seen, your voices are heard and your rights are supported. We stand with you in calling for a swift and just resolution to this pension row and will support you all the way. I am calling on this Government to act urgently. These workers have shown remarkable dedication to their job. They have gone above and beyond for schools and deserve fair treatment and the peace of mind that comes with access to proper pension schemes. It is only fair they receive the same recognition and entitlements as their colleagues such as teachers and SNAs. I have been absolutely battered and lobbied about this. I spoke to a lot of secretaries and they feel very underwhelmed. The secretary is the backbone of any committee, cumann or school. There is a massive injustice here. I am anxious to hear the Minister of State’s response.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy for raising this matter and allowing me to clarify the current position in relation to pay and conditions for school secretaries. As we know from our engagement with schools in our respective constituencies, the school secretary is very much at the heart of the school and is the key interface between students, parents, school leaders and other staff. Without them, our schools would be unsustainable. In supporting these vital school staff members we also support the school community as a whole.

The majority of primary and voluntary secondary schools traditionally received assistance to provide for secretarial, caretaking and cleaning services under grant schemes. Where a school employed a staff member to support those functions those staff are not public servants but employees of individual schools and responsibility for terms of employment rests with the school. Since September 2023, the Department has been providing a payroll service for former grant-funded school secretaries. I am glad to be able to say that currently 85% of school secretaries have opted for the new package and are on the Department administered payroll. This happened on foot of an agreement reached in 2022 under the auspices of the Workplace Relations Commission that secretaries would move to a centralised payroll managed by the Department and receive new terms and conditions of employment.

As the Deputy knows, school secretaries now benefit from an alignment with the clerical officer grade III pay scale within education and training boards on a pro rata basis. In addition, it was agreed pay increases under future national agreements will be passed on to secretaries and this has happened with each pay increase since the implementation of the agreement. My Department has also improved the conditions for school secretaries with regard to sick leave, annual leave and maternity provisions for this category of staff. For example, where only 51% of grant-funded secretaries had paid sick leave previously, all those who have onboarded to the Department's payroll now have access to paid sick leave entitlements.

I acknowledge that Fórsa is looking to future improvements to terms and conditions for secretaries and recognise that for them public service status and access to a public service pension is understandably an important objective. The issue of public service status is complex and needs to have regard to the state of the public finances and the repercussive effects of any such proposals for other grant-funded groups of non-public servants. For those reasons, any proposals must be considered in detail by the Department of Education's officials and those in the Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform as the granting or otherwise of public servant status is not within the scope of the Department of Education alone.

Pat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister of State for his response. I got the same response, probably word for word, less than two hours ago in a reply to a parliamentary question. I cannot stress enough how much these issues need to be resolved. The last line in the response from the Minister for Education was:

For those reasons, any proposals must be considered in detail by my own officials and those in the Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform as the granting or otherwise of public servant status is not within the scope of this Department.

I would love to know which Department's scope it is within. It affects so many people. Immediate steps need to be taken by this Government to ensure all school secretaries are recognised as public servants, which they truly are. The granting of access to a fair, secure public service pension is about equality and equality is not a privilege but a right. That has to be addressed. We will not have time to do it now but I would like to find out, perhaps through a parliamentary question, who or which Department is responsible for this. I ask the Government to look at this. Whatever Department is responsible, I ask that it act with fairness and give school secretaries the recognition and the retirement security they have more than earned. I gave the example of the difference between 40 years' service as an SNA or schoolteacher and 40 years' service as a secretary is that one leaves with a pension and the other gets a bunch of flowers and maybe a box of chocolates.

I respect the Minister of State’s response. Obviously, I am not happy with it and the people outside will probably not be happy with it, but we will certainly revisit this issue. We have had this issue for more than 45 years. We have recognition for SNAs and disability service workers, who are being discussed in the House this week. This is about giving recognition to those who are supplying that service. That is where governments have failed. It is why this country and our services have been failing. I thank the Minister of State for his response.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy for raising this matter on the floor of the House. I will pass on the argument and case he has made to the Minister for Education. As I said, there have been significant advancements, as I think we would all recognise. I laid them out in my earlier reply as well. The implementation of revised salary and annual leave entitlements for school secretaries in the February 2022 agreement is now fully operational and lessons learned from that process are now playing a key role in the drafting and implementation of a similar deal to be offered to grant-funded school caretakers. The Minister's officials are also continuing to engage with Fórsa and remain committed to the ongoing process.

In the normal course, there are ongoing discussions with the public service unions on any and all matters relating to pay agreements. Any review of changes to the employment of school caretakers or other pay mechanisms can occur only under those processes and any such proposals would need to be considered in detail by the Department of public expenditure, as I said.

The reply also refers to the work being undertaken by the Department of, and Minister for, Social Protection on the development of an auto-enrolment pension scheme, which the Deputy will be aware of.

The substance of the Deputy matter relates to the request for public service status for school secretaries and access to a pension. That is not in place at the moment but there have been significant advances on other matters of importance to school secretaries. The matter on which the Deputy advocates is an outstanding ask on which the Department is engaging. It will be a matter of further engagement with the Department of Education and also across government because of its implications for other similar categories. I thank the Deputy. I will pass on his advocacy in the Dáil this evening on behalf of school secretaries to the Minister.

Pat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister of State.