Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I thank the Minister of State for coming in from the appropriate Department to deal with this issue. It is appreciated.

Does the Minister of State want to be a hero in rural Ireland?

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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He thought he was.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Maybe he already is.

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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I doubt it.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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To be honest, as his officials have probably already told him, I have been chasing this issue since 2012. The taxi regulations review brought about a new rural hackney licence. I was the Minister of State in that Department and I sponsored this. The application process started in 2013-2014 but very few took it up because it was too rigid in terms of the rules and regulations around it. This year, there were 22 vehicles and 24 licensed drivers.

The then Minister, Eamon Ryan, launched a pilot in 2023 in Killala, County Mayo, to provide a subsidy for the fixed costs, which I welcome, and the NTA is looking at the various digital platforms with regard to trying to have bespoke solutions in rural areas for the provision of different transport options. That is all very welcome and the use of technology is important. However, the reality is that Ireland has changed. There is a failure from a market point of view with regard to the provision of services but this goes beyond the market. Given the geographical distribution of people in this country, no market is going to be able to provide a bespoke solution for taxi and hackney services in rural areas.

I come from Portroe, which the Minister of State knows. It is a small place on the banks of the River Shannon.

It is one of the most beautiful places in the world, although I would say that. Trying to get a taxi there is literally impossible. People who want to go out socialising or to appointments, including to medical appointments, depend on the goodwill of neighbours or family. There is a whole range of other issues, such as shopping. The fact is that we can provide a solution. Recently I met the NTA to discuss this. I understand the driver has to have a PSV licence but we should also have a licence for a vehicle which would be accessible to four or five people in a locality who can collect and deliver people within a radius of, for example, 10 km with set fares. These taxis or hackneys would be subsidised by a small amount by the State, as is proposed by the Minister, Deputy O'Brien. These licences should be available easily enough, working with the local authority.

We should not have a scenario whereby if there is a taxi in a locality this rural hackney licence is not provided. I can tell the Minister of State that where I am from there are registered taxi drivers but people cannot get them because they only operate for a few hours. This is their choice and that is fine. We have a failure here. We will never be able to have services in rural areas unless we create a bespoke solution. I have been on this for a decade. It is doable. It has been done in other jurisdictions around the world, where a number of groups come together, such as businesses, community groups and charities, and there is a car which a number of people are licensed to drive. It is bespoke as to where they can pick up and deliver, and they cannot intercept the other taxi market. We have to introduce this because there is a complete failure at present.

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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I thank Deputy Kelly for raising this issue. I am from the most beautiful place in Galway. It is a very rural area called Belclare. The Cathaoirleach Gníomhach, Deputy Connolly, is laughing at me. It is beautiful but there is scarcely a taxi or hackney there either. I appreciate the issue raised by Deputy Kelly and I thank him for raising it. I will read some of the reply and then I will speak to Deputy Kelly about it.

Neither the Minister for Transport nor his Department are involved in the day-to-day operation of public transport, including with regard to small public service vehicles. The National Transport Authority is the independent regulator for licensing and enforcement for the SPSV industry under the consolidated taxi regulations. That being said, I want to clarify that the Minister of State, Deputy Buttimer, has taken over the brief for rural transport. He has visited many rural areas over the past few months. He recognises the crucial role played by local taxi and hackney services in combatting loneliness and isolation in rural areas, and their importance in enhancing tourism and hospitality offerings in local rural areas.

Taxis, hackneys and local area hackneys have an important role to play in meeting travel demand. In recognition of this, the programme for Government commits to improving local taxi service provision. The NTA currently issues local area hackney licences where applicants can show there is a need for this part-time service and that it will not displace or replace current SPSV providers. These special licences are limited to a local area of operation, typically where an applicant resides, and applicants are not required to meet a few of the standard licence application requirements. For example, a resident of the area in respect of which the local area hackney licence is sought is not required to undertake the industry knowledge or area knowledge tests, and the licensing fees are significantly lower for the local area licence, at €50 per vehicle and €20 per driver. A condition of the local area licence is that only passengers within a designated range of 10 km can be picked up, as Deputy Kelly said, and a new fare may not be picked up at a drop-off point outside of that area.

As Deputy Kelly stated, two licences are required. There is a licence for the vehicle, which is a three-year licence. There is also a licence to drive a local area hackney, which is obtainable from An Garda Síochána. This is not required if a person already holds a valid licence to drive SPSVs. As of 25 April, there are 22 licensed local area hackney vehicles and 19 licensed local area hackney drivers.

The NTA launched and administered two local area hackney schemes in recent years, one in 2019 and another in 2023, to support and promote it. The take-up of the 2019 pilot was very disappointing with only two of the 15 locations taking it up. The subsequent impact of Covid on the industry in 2020 impacted pilot operations. A further pilot was undertaken in 2023. This was launched in January 2023 in 21 locations and provided a grant of €6,000. Notwithstanding significant work by the NTA, just two operators were licensed.

The issue of rural transport services is an ongoing focus for the Department. It is something that I, the Minister, Deputy O’Brien, and the Minister of State, Deputy Buttimer, have already discussed. We must look at the issue in depth to see how we can have a system whereby people will be attracted to take up this local area hackney service. Deputy Kelly mentioned some ideas. I am willing to engage with him further in this regard because, at the end of the day, we want to achieve a result rather than talking in five years' time about how it is still failing.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I thank the Minister of State and I appreciate his sincerity. He does come from a beautiful part of County Galway. I do not want to be talking about this matter for several more years. I know that there is system we can put in place that will work. The requirements are specific. We need people to come together who can operate a vehicle that can be subsidised, such as through the €6,000 a year. These people should all have the one licence to be able to operate the vehicle. They should all come from the one community, whether it is Portroe, Newtown, Ballywilliam or the other areas near me that I mentioned. The point is that the process is too cumbersome.

Another issue is that people in a locality know about an elderly person or a person with a mobility issue. The local publicans can come together for the two nights a week that they will have a few people there and they will know what they need. They will be able to customise their requirements for the service. A number of businesses can come together, such as the shop, the community group, the publican or charities. I know there is a requirement and a demand for this service but under the current structure no one will ever take it up because it is too cumbersome.

I am glad that, hopefully, we will have a new CEO of the NTA and, hopefully, a new vision. One of the biggest issues is this idea that such a service would displace taxis. This cannot be a major consideration because the restrictions on drop-off and pick-up, and the limits on fares, mean the service will only be used in the limited circumstances I referred to. This is one of the main reasons it will not be successful unless it is changed. Taxi and hackney drivers provide a fantastic service but it is a separate service. We need what I have proposed. It is totally possible. We need engagement with the insurance industry to execute it. It is deliverable. I ask the Minister of State to please become a hero for rural Ireland.

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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The Deputy and I are on the one page. Complication in a system can create a lot of paperwork and problems, and it can create little by way of results. We need to have a serious look at how we are doing the business here. We must ensure we are not displacing existing taxi services, as the Deputy said. They must also make a living. It is a case of going back to first principles and seeing where the demand is, seeing where exactly we can make it work, and rotate it around having a number of drivers available for a car.

We must also bring in community involvement and community groups. This is important. People's lifestyles and the way they socialise in rural areas has changed. The pub trade has changed. We will have to take all of this in the round. I know of people who would like to get a taxi at certain times during the day or night. They certainly will not get them at night but they may get them during the day. There is an issue there. This is a matter we will go back to following this debate. I will speak to the Minister of State, Deputy Buttimer, and to the officials about this issue and we will see where we can bring it. As I have said, the idea is to provide a service that is workable and uncomplicated because this is what works best. I thank the Deputy.