Dáil debates
Tuesday, 13 May 2025
Ceisteanna - Questions
Cabinet Committees
4:15 am
Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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15. To ask the Taoiseach when the Cabinet Committee on Northern Ireland will meet next. [8487/25]
Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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16. To ask the Taoiseach when the Cabinet Committee on Northern Ireland will meet next. [16781/25]
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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17. To ask the Taoiseach when the Cabinet Committee on Northern Ireland will meet next. [16857/25]
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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18. To ask the Taoiseach when the Cabinet Committee on Northern Ireland will meet next. [17099/25]
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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19. To ask the Taoiseach when the Cabinet Committee on Northern Ireland will meet next. [17102/25]
Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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20. To ask the Taoiseach when the Cabinet Committee on Northern Ireland will meet next. [18745/25]
Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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21. To ask the Taoiseach when the Cabinet Committee on Northern Ireland will meet next. [19931/25]
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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22. To ask the Taoiseach when the Cabinet Committee on Northern Ireland will meet next. [20790/25]
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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23. To ask the Taoiseach when the Cabinet Committee on Northern Ireland will meet next. [22201/25]
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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24. To ask the Taoiseach when the Cabinet Committee on Northern Ireland will meet next. [22207/25]
Ivana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
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25. To ask the Taoiseach when the Cabinet Committee on Northern Ireland will next meet. [13746/25]
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 15 to 25, inclusive, together.
The Cabinet Committee on Northern Ireland was created on 18 February 2025 to oversee implementation of relevant programme for Government commitments and ongoing developments in relation to Northern Ireland, Irish-British relations and the shared island initiative.
As well as considering issues relevant to the Government’s position as a co-guarantor of the Good Friday Agreement, including our role in Good Friday Agreement institutions such as the North-South Ministerial Council, the British-Irish Council and the British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference, topics for discussion will also include the annual United Kingdom-Irish summits and their agreed programme of work, and the continued roll-out and development of the investment, research and dialogue strands of the shared island initiative.
I look forward to attending the next British-Irish Council summit in June in Newcastle, County Down. I welcome also that North-South Ministerial Council sectorals are continuing at pace, with seven having already taken place this year and another due to happen tomorrow. I also look forward to attending the next plenary meeting of the North-South Ministerial Council, in June, hosted by First Minister O'Neill and deputy First Minister Little-Pengelly.
Membership of the Cabinet committee consists of: the Taoiseach; the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, and for Defence; the Minister for Finance; the Minister for Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform; and the Minister for Justice. The Minister of State, Seán Canney, is also entitled to attend. Other Ministers and Ministers of State can also be invited to participate as required. This Cabinet committee will meet biannually. Its first meeting took place on 12 May.
Issues related to Northern Ireland will continue to also be discussed at Cabinet, including where decisions are required, and at leadership level.
Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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There is a great opportunity on this island for generating energy in a sustainable way and I am ambitious for what we can do. I believe we can be a leader and part of that is infrastructure, capacity on the grids, storage capacity, but also capital infrastructure that is needed to maintain the offshore wind farms. Greenore Port in County Louth is in a perfect position to be an incredibly valuable asset for the country, North and South, as it has planning permission for new operational and maintenance facilities. This should be considered as a North-South project, potentially under the shared island unit. I ask that the Taoiseach would ask his Department to look at how the State can support Greenore Port so that it becomes an asset for the entire island.
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome what the Taoiseach said in the sense of supporting a public inquiry into the murder of Sean Brown. We have all heard about the huge level of collusion, the number of agents who had information and who had been involved in this and the questions in relation to surveillance. The question I have for the Taoiseach is on whether this Government policy. On that basis, how does the Taoiseach intend to engage with Hilary Benn and the wider British Government because we have to deliver for the family of Sean Brown who have been failed over the past 28 years?
I would also put it to the Taoiseach, as I have stated previously as regards Irish unity, that we have to deal with the constitutional issue and he has to come up with some means or mode where we can have the conversation on what constitutional change would look like. Alongside and long before that, we have many cross-Border issues, particularly in a constituency such as mine, that relate to taxation, benefits, insurance, etc.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Thank you, Deputy.
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The Tánaiste, when he was Taoiseach, spoke about the need for a cross-Border hub that could deal with some of these issues and make sure that they are on the political agenda. We know that there will be no difficulty engaging with the Northern Executive.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I would ask you to conclude, Deputy Ó Murchú.
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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We should be able to engage with the British Government at this stage. We are not dealing with the madness we would have had previously.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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We must never accept the Tory or media narrative that often scapegoats and demonises migrants. "Problems of low pay, housing and public services are not caused by migrants – they are caused by a failed economic model." Keir Starmer wrote that in 2020. However, after Labour took a hammering in the recent elections, the British Prime Minister has reversed course. Mr. Starmer has not reversed course on the so-called "welfare" reform. He has not reversed course on the attacks on disabled people.
He has reversed course by joining in with Nigel Farage's scapegoating of migrants. He delivered an incredible speech yesterday echoing Enoch Powell's notorious "rivers of blood" speech in which he talked about the danger of Britain becoming an "island of strangers" and said that there would be a big reduction in migration. Has the Government discussed what the impact of this will be as regards the North? I particularly ask about the health and social care workforce because 70% of health workers newly recruited in the North last year were from outside the UK and the EU. Will this have any impact on cross-Border workers?
4:25 am
Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I again raise the issue of the need for the British Government to repeal and replace the legacy legislation. This deplorable legislation gives murderers and terrorists the opportunity to absolve themselves of the most heinous of crimes regardless of whether they worked for British state forces or for paramilitary organisations. We need to see progress in replacing that legislation. We are days away from the 51st anniversary of the Dublin-Monaghan bombings, an awful day when 34 people were killed on our island. We have seen a lack of co-operation from the British Government in responding to requests unanimously made by this Oireachtas on a number of occasions to give an eminent independent international legal person access to all papers and files pertaining to the Dublin-Monaghan bombings. We need progress on that.
We very much welcome the great progress that is being made with the shared island initiative and the very substantial level of investment. A few weeks ago, while attending the Cork-Cavan national league game, the Taoiseach will have seen the very fine facilities we have in Kingspan Breffni Park. He will also be aware of the plans we have for a regional sports complex. In that context, we should have a stream in respect of sports funding on an all-Ireland basis through the shared island fund. This could allow for sister complexes, North and South.
Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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The UK Supreme Court judgment on the definition of a woman impacts trans and intersex people in Northern Ireland. Many of them are living in fear and being driven out of public life, which is the intent of the judgment. The DUP has said that it will look at guidelines for schools, which means there could be further attacks on the rights of trans people. Many of these are eligible to be citizens of Ireland should they so choose. There has also been a ban on trans healthcare in the North. Yesterday, People Before Profit proposed an amendment that could have allowed that ban to be reversed but, unfortunately, it was not taken up by MLAs. People are mobilising in Belfast at 12.30 p.m. this Saturday to march for trans rights because the far right has also singled out this group as a very vulnerable minority. It is very important that we stand with trans and intersex people, whose rights we affirm in the Republic, and that we show our solidarity and support. Parties that are organised in both the North and the South should have the same position on this matter, North and South.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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The Good Friday Agreement is now 27 years old. I will resurrect some research conducted around the 25th anniversary by Behaviour and Attitudes for The Sunday Times. It highlighted the attitudes of young people, including the ceasefire babies who grew up in peaceful times although very much still dealing with the legacy of conflict, paramilitarism and divided communities. Half of those 18- to 34-year-olds said they did not fully understand the history of the Troubles, 42% said they did and 8% said they did not know. It strikes me that the Good Friday Agreement should have more prominence in our primary and secondary schools not just as a history lesson, but as a living, breathing framework for peace and reconciliation on our island and beyond. There should be age-appropriate lessons on civil rights, the devastation of violence now and for generations, living with opposing ideologies and narratives and the role of dialogue. Those legendary laureates, Hume and Trimble, whose busts stand proudly in the Oireachtas, are no longer with us. Neither are several of the architects of the agreement. Their legacy must live on, however. The Good Friday Agreement is often referred to as a living document and so it should be but, to remain a living, breathing framework for peace and reconciliation that governs, as it should, the totality of relationships across these islands, new energy must continually be invested in it. That should involve giving the Good Friday Agreement more prominence in our schools.
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Taoiseach for his reply. I look forward to chairing the Committee on the Implementation of the Good Friday Agreement. The committee will begin its work shortly and I look forward to working with the Taoiseach and with colleagues from across the House in advancing the spirit and the commitments of the agreement.
Will the Taoiseach elaborate on how the Cabinet committee is progressing cross-Border ministerial co-operation? I am particularly interested in hearing about recent or planned work on cross-Border projects on healthcare co-ordination, enterprise and tourism promotion. These are areas where practical co-operation can deliver real benefits for communities on both sides of the Border. I thank the Taoiseach and commend the work of the Cabinet in establishing this committee on Northern Ireland.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I ask about Sean Brown, chairman of Bellaghy Wolfe Tones Gaelic Athletic Club in County Derry, who was ambushed, kidnapped and murdered by loyalist paramilitaries as he locked the gates of the club in May 1997. No one has ever been convicted of his killing. The British Government has failed to establish an independent public inquiry into Mr. Brown's 1997 murder despite being directed to do so by the High Court and despite a ruling by the Court of Appeal in Belfast last month that declared this refusal to be unlawful and a breach of Article 2 of the European Convention on Human Rights. The Tánaiste met Bridie Brown yesterday evening. Will the Irish Government make a clear and unequivocal call for a public inquiry as directed by the High Court and Court of Appeal? I am asking for that to be enunciated very clearly. I am not talking about a nebulous form of investigation but a fully constituted public inquiry that is compliant with Article 2, as directed by the High Court and Court of Appeal.
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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I will also raise the issue of an investigation in respect of Sean Brown. All of us in this Chamber have talked about what the GAA means to us. Sean Brown was murdered in large part because he was a GAA member and official. On the day he was abducted by loyalists, he was simply closing the gates of Bellaghy Wolfe Tones Gaelic Athletic Club in Derry. I welcome the Tánaiste's meeting with the family of Sean Brown. I believe he gave the family great confidence that action will be taken. I also welcome the Taoiseach's words on this matter in recent times. At a recent meeting with the British in Liverpool, it was articulated that there would be a reset of relationships between this State and Britain. The latter holds an enormous amount of documentation, evidence and facts relating to the killing of hundreds of Irish people through or by British forces in Ireland. If that relationship is to be reset, now may be the time to look for a significant delivery of such information to public inquiries so that people can get to the truth. Will the Taoiseach also tell us the status of the interstate case relating to the legacy Act?
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I thank all of the Deputies for raising their various issues. On the work of the shared island unit, Deputy McGreehan mentioned Greenore Port. The first port of call - excuse the pun - should be to the Department of Transport. The shared island unit is not there to replace existing funding streams or strategies but to develop connectivity at structural levels, community levels, between local authorities and so on. I will talk to the Deputy later about the specific issues there. Ports policy is covered by the Department of Transport. The ports must be subject to ongoing development.
Deputy Ó Murchú referred to the murder of Sean Brown and the need for an inquiry. We have pushed for such an inquiry and articulated that need. I have to be balanced here. Deputies Ó Murchú, Brendan Smith, Tóibín and McDonald also raised these issues. Deputy Smith raised the issue of the legacy Act in its entirety and the need for the fullest of information regarding Belturbet and Dublin and Monaghan.
All of that is encapsulated by the legacy Act itself. The first thing that needs to be said in the context of resetting relationships is that this British Government has moved very significantly on the legacy Act compared to the previous British Government. The level of engagement now between the Irish Government and the British Government is significantly upscaled and of a different order compared to the level of engagement by the previous Government. I just want to make those points.
In respect of the case, it is still with the European court, although the key areas that we had pursued, or on which we rested the case, with regard to immunity has now been dealt with. The banning of civil cases has now been dealt with as well. There is a lot of engagement going on between officials on both sides in respect of a new potential dispensation on this, and whether we can we get agreement on a common approach to legacy, which I think would be very desirable.
4:35 am
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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May I make a point of information?
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Let me finish, please.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Allow the Taoiseach to finish and I will allow the Deputy to come back to raise a point.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Regarding the legacy Act in general, if we could be, and if we in the Republic were, satisfied that there would be reciprocity in terms of information and so forth on both sides - people are seeking information from the Republic and the Government in the Republic in respect of a number of cases, including the Kingsmill case, and we co-operated on the Kingsmill inquiry, and we now have a memorandum of understanding with regard to the Omagh inquiry - I believe that the broad nature of legacy needs to be dealt with once and for all and comprehensively. The published Kenova report was quite revealing on state collusion between the United Kingdom's state forces and loyalist paramilitaries. It was also quite scathing of the work, activities and atrocities committed by the Provisional IRA. It was quite scathing and comprehensive. It said that the Provisional IRA did more damage to its own community than anybody else. We have never had a debate in this House about the Kenova report. Maybe that part of the Kenova report was too unpalatable for us to have a debate. I would like a debate on the entirety of Kenova in this House.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Let us discuss it. Maybe half of it does not suit and, therefore, there were no calls from the Opposition for a debate on Kenova. We do need totality on legacy if we can. I go back to the Eames Bradley report. There has never been a successful approach that enjoys everybody's participation-----
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Can I make my point of information, please?
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----in respect of legacy. There are aspects of the legacy Act that we do not agree with and are seeking to change. There is ongoing engagement between the Northern Ireland Office and our Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade. The Cabinet sub-committee has discussed this and the prospects of whether we can get a joint approach in respect of legacy that would be endorsed by both Governments. This work is currently under way.
On the other issues that were raised about the Good Friday Agreement, and to respond to Deputy Devlin, it is a living document, as Deputy Currie said as well. I would be open - I have put this idea forward in the context of the shared island - to see if there is a way we could develop a shared history programme. It may be an option for schools North and South to engage in. Is there a possibility to develop between academics North and South an approach to historical perspectives? People come from different communities with different perspectives on the histories. We did a lot of work during the decade of centenaries. A lot of good, informed history was written and updated, with new angles and new approaches to it. That could be informative to a younger generation. It is a worthy project.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I ask the Taoiseach to conclude.
Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Shared literature and poetry on the curriculum, North and South, is also something we should do.
There are cross-Border benefits with taxation. Deputy Ó Murchú asked about this. The inter-sectoral ministerial meetings are dealing with those issues. The Minister for Finance, with his counterpart in the Northern Ireland Executive, have had discussions. Taxation is a challenging and complex issue, as I am sure the Deputy is aware, but it is a pressing one for workers North and South. There are significant anomalies there.
Deputy Paul Murphy raised the issue of the demonisation of migrants. Migration is an issue now in a way that it was not a decade ago. It is a significant issue. It is a significant issue in the United Kingdom and in the Republic. We need to approach it with sensitivity and honesty. In my view, it is legitimate for countries to say that the cases of those who are not entitled to asylum should be dealt with in an accelerated way, with due process offered. Then, if someone is not entitled to asylum, he or she should not remain in the State. There is absolutely no doubt that migration is now impacting on the politics, the political narratives, and the electoral outcomes in a lot of societies and a lot of countries across Europe, including the United Kingdom and Ireland, and we cannot be blind to that reality either. Governments are adapting and changing in respect of that reality. There are limits to what governments can do and there are limits to how far governments can respond. That needs to be understood also.
Deputy Coppinger raised the issue of trans rights. The British Supreme Court decision in respect of British legislation and does not have application in the Republic. We need to approach that issue with the utmost sensitivity. Every young person going through a very difficult journey in life does feel very vulnerable. I heard recently of statistics on the higher numbers of self harm among LGBT people but particularly among the trans community. This is very worrying. That is why there is a responsibility on every public representative to speak in an informed way, but always having in one's mind the person and the individual who is going through that journey and not to be judgmental. People can have their positions and people can have their perspectives but it is very important that we retain the capacity to have a genuinely sensitive discussion about these matters in our political discourse. That is what we will do. I hope the Oireachtas can unite on such an approach as being appropriate to the values we have set out in our own legislative frameworks. This is something I would continue to pursue.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy McDonald had a point to make.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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For the record, the imperative for a full public inquiry into the murder of Sean Brown is entirely separate to the need for, or any prospect of, the overturning of the wider legacy legislation. It bears no relationship to it. The Taoiseach ought to know that the Brown case is unique in many features. It is about a failed inquest process. A very simple remedy can be afforded to create the public inquiry. I am concerned and anxious that the Government here does not confuse a wider legitimate issue around legacy and the need for a proper legislative framework. That is one thing and an important thing, but the imperative for the inquiry into the murder of Sean Brown is entirely distinct and legally separate from that. I want to make that point with some force to the Taoiseach so it is recorded in the Official Report of the Dáil.