Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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159. To ask the Taoiseach and Minister for Defence further to Parliamentary Question No. 117 of 5 February 2025, if the minutes of all meetings with an organisation (details supplied) will now be provided; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [18047/25]

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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My question is very specific and relates to a specific organisation. It is about a specific series of meetings the Department of Defence has had with the Irish Defence and Security Association. This is my third time asking for the minutes of these meetings. On the last occasion, whoever was in the Tánaiste's place told us it was his intention to publish these minutes. I have two notes here. To say they are opaque would be extremely generous. Will the Tánaiste answer my question?

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Connolly is referring to meetings between officials from the Department of Defence and the Irish Defence and Security Association. As she is aware, the IDSA was established in 2021. Its mission is:

to ensure Ireland develops appropriate, leading edge and trusted defence and security capabilities in the land, sea, air, space and cyber domains, in order to protect our society, create jobs, drive research and enhance Ireland’s economic growth

National defence industry associations are the norm in most EU member states. They provide support to industry operating in defence markets in a number of ways. They create networks, disseminate information and assist contractors to find suitable sub-contractors. They are important for our small and medium-sized enterprises, particularly as I have been very clear about our ambition to increase our capabilities. I want Irish companies to be able to benefit from that.

In that context, the IDSA plays a role in enhancing awareness between Irish industry and my Department through periodic engagement. Departmental engagement with the IDSA is primarily around identifying opportunities to support Irish enterprise and research bodies in accessing EU funding streams and providing support and opportunities to companies, especially SMEs, to develop technologies to keep our Defence Forces safe whether they are on missions and operations overseas or undertaking a range of duties at home and abroad.

The minutes requested under Parliamentary Question No. 117 of 5 February 2025 refer to meetings the Department held with the IDSA. Minutes are available for meetings since October 2024, when scheduled meeting arrangements were put in place. The minutes of two meetings, which took place in October 2024 and December 2024, have now been published on the website of the Department of Defence. Officials from my Department held a subsequent meeting with the IDSA on 10 April and the minutes of that meeting will be published on the Department's website shortly. I have directed the Department of Defence to publish the minutes of all meetings held with the Irish Defence and Security Association on its website.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I did not see those minutes. Perhaps we did not look properly. I do not know. I welcome that they are there. I will take back the word "minutes" because these are not minutes. What I have are two notes. To describe them as "minutes" is utterly wrong. In the notes of one meeting that was held in Newbridge, we see that a person took the notes in October 2024. We have no idea of the agenda or of the outcome other than that "It was agreed that ... and some of his team" and so on. It is vague and opaque and we have no idea of the purpose of the meeting. We also have a note dating from 12 December. Again, there is no agenda laid out. This one only tells us where the meeting was held when we go down into the text. They are very opaque as notes of meetings. It is like somebody wrote them up because the question was asked.

Let us look at this organisation. It was set up in 2021. Ben Tonra is a member. He is on record declaring that he had been volunteering to set up this organisation for some time. This is a man who has serious views on neutrality being selfish. He is part of this organisation that lobbies for the international arms industry. That is how I see it. The Tánaiste can correct me if I am wrong. I am over time.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I hope the Deputy will let me take a look at the minutes and let my office provide her with clarity as to where they are. I hope she will give me feedback on that. My note tells me that, in summary, the minutes of the meeting on 2 October largely refer to preparations for the Department's participation in an IDSA event held in November and that the minutes of the meeting on 12 December refer to enhancing communication between the Department and the association and scheduling future periodic meetings. There is also reference to a brief discussion on the European defence technology industrial base, EDTIB. I am told the minutes were published on the Department of Defence website on Monday, 7 April 2025.

We may have different perspectives on this. I believe transparency is important but that it is okay to talk to industry representative bodies. I have been very clear that we are going to be spending a lot more money on national security and defence. So are most European countries. We are doing it in the context of being militarily neutral. Irish companies need to be enabled and to have the information to benefit from that investment.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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The arms industry is supplying arms for genocide to be carried out in Palestine. The Tánaiste knows that. He has spoken about it. This group represents the arms industry, it lobbies for the arms industry and it has an open door to the Department. I know of a series of meetings. Is the Tánaiste confirming that the minutes, or whatever we are going to call them, of all 11 meetings that have been held are available? He should be able to confirm that. He should be able to tell me the nature of those meetings, where they were held, how long they lasted, who attended and so on. None of that is apparent. It is completely opaque. If the Tánaiste wants transparency, the least he can do is to give us an accurate record of the meetings and to tell us their purpose, who called them, their outcomes and so on. This is the arms industry. It has no moral conscience and exists for profit. Its weapons are being used to murder people and to commit genocide. As a neutral sovereign State, if our Department of Defence is meeting a lobbying group, at the very least it should be open, transparent and accountable about it. When the people who are involved are on TV shows or the radio, they should make declarations as to their background and interests.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I am not sure whether the Deputy would use that sort of language outside the House. It is quite an extraordinary thing to say about an association established with the mission "to ensure Ireland develops appropriate, leading edge and trusted defence and security capabilities in the land, sea, air, space and cyber domains". The Deputy has said the most extraordinary things about the association. I have never met with the association in my life and do not speak for it but it is entirely appropriate that the State interact with people who represent industry because-----

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Does that include the arms industry?

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy attaches to everything-----

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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It is not everything.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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-----that has to do with national security the arms industry. We are going to need to procure radar, sonar and uniforms for the men and women of the Defence Forces. The Deputy may disagree but the Government is clear that we are going to level of ambition 2 as set out in the Commission on the Defence Forces report. We then want to go to level of ambition 3. That is going to require spending money and Irish companies should be in a position to benefit. That is all it is about. We do not publish the minutes of every meeting that every Government official has with every agency on a Government website but, in this case, I am happy to do so because I believe the Deputy is right. The minutes were published on the website on 7 April. As I have said very clearly, those minutes refer to meetings that took place since October 2024. I have been very clear that I want meetings to be scheduled and structured and that minutes should be published after each of them.