Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
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152. To ask the Taoiseach and Minister for Defence if he will consider the introduction of service commitment schemes to retain key specialist functions within the Defence Forces and if he will make a statement on the matter. [18075/25]

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
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We all share a great deal of concern about the challenges faced by the Defence Forces in recruitment and retention. It is severe right across the organisation but it is felt most keenly in the area of specialist staff such as air traffic controllers, engineers and explosive ordnance disposals officers. This is a major challenge. There is a lot of competition from the private sector. We need to consider this and how we retain some of this crucial staff.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I agree with the Deputy about recruitment and retention. We can have all the investment plans, and we need to in the Defence Forces, but the men and women in the Defence Forces constitute its most important resource. Given that this is a country with full employment and very skilled individuals work in the Defence Forces, how we recruit in the first instance and then crucially retain them is a very fair question raised by the Deputy.

My Department has one service commitment scheme in place in respect of Air Corps pilots and these matters are always kept under review. Recruitment and retention of Defence Forces personnel is, and must be, a Government priority. There are challenges with recruitment and retention in the Defence Forces with particular challenges relating to specialist personnel. Our focus has been on ensuring that existing recruitment and retention frameworks are fully optimised and are responsive to the needs of the Defence Forces while at the same time introducing a number of new initiatives in this space.

While there is always more to do, there has been significant progress on a range of fronts, including pay, in recent years. Recruit pay on completion of training, which takes approximately 24 weeks, starts at €41,465 in year one rising to €42,875 in year two and €44,176 in year three. For officers, as of 1 March 2025, a school leaver cadet on commissioning is now paid €45,341, which is a second lieutenant position. In 2019, a school leaver cadet on commissioning was paid €30,884 so there has been quite a significant increase. In the past five years a cadet's pay on commissioning has increased by €14,457, or by 49%. Furthermore, after two years, they are promoted to lieutenant and their pay rises to €50,677. I say this because I am not sure whether these changes are fully known. There might be people watching and following this debate and we want to make it clear to them that pay issues in the Defence Forces have changed in recent years. Of course, there is more to do and I will come back on this in a moment. Other developments include the extension of private secondary health care to enlisted ranks, the restructuring of the patrol duty allowance paid to the Naval Service to encourage seagoing activities, a technical pay 2-6 review completed and implemented that is targeted at specialist and technical personnel and developments relating to the Organisation of Working Time Act 1997.

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
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Much of the Tánaiste's response related more to the recruitment side of things. We have a significant challenge in that regard and we are not out of the woods by any manner of means.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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We are not.

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
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My specific question primarily relates to the retention of highly skilled people. I have put to the Tánaiste previously that much of the debate on this topic has been for an external audience. In truth, for all the big speeches, much of the substance of what is needed to ensure the sustainability of the Defence Forces is absent. The Tánaiste has been talking about fighter jets while we have sent boats to sea in recent months without a functioning main gun because we do not have artificers to operate it. I understand that whole classes have come out of some of the schemes and all but two or three of them have been bought out by major private sector firms. I understand that in recent weeks, three or four people involved in air traffic control at Baldonnel have left the Defence Forces, which creates potentially significant difficulties for the Air Corps and the Government jet. If the Tánaiste would comment on that, I would welcome it.

The problem I am identifying is in retaining staff. We need to consider schemes to ensure that personnel are retained and not taken by the private sector.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I was not talking about fighter jets but was asked about a question about them at an Army barracks. I said I want to get to level of ambition, LAO, 3, which talks about that degree of air cover. We need a better understanding of what happens and the capabilities in our skies and seas. The Deputy is right that the key to being able to activate any of this is having the personnel to operate any such infrastructural capabilities, and we can debate the merits or demerits of each of those.

I am not saying this is what he is saying, but it is not fair to completely decouple pay from considerations of retention. If pay is very low, personnel are not going to be retained in an organisation. The changes in pay are helpful. The extension of private secondary healthcare, restructuring of the patrol duty allowance and the extensive training and education opportunities that now exist in the Defence Forces, which are possibly unrivalled in many parts of the public service, are also helpful. Increasing the mandatory retirement age to 62 is a retention measure and increasing the maximum recruitment age to 39 also brings people in.

The Deputy asked if I will consider the introduction of service commitment schemes to retain key specialist functions. My answer is that we already have one and I keep under review whether we need to do more in respect of particular specialties that we want to retain in the Defence Forces.

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
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As I understand it, the scheme to which the Tánaiste referred relates specifically to pilots.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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That is correct.

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Defences Forces face challenges. If anybody is going to be decoupling the issues of pay and recruitment, it certainly will not be me. It is very much the case that they are linked. The point I am raising relates to the retention of existing staff and not recruiting new staff, which is also a challenge. Aside from the category that is covered by the service commitment, there are whole areas with significant problems. I will later ask the Tánaiste a question about cybersecurity. How are we going to be able to retain people, particularly in Ireland, with the number of tech companies here? How are we going to be able to retain people with cybersecurity expertise with the competition we could face?

I have made a point about the issues relating to artificers. There are also issues in respect of explosive ordnance disposal officers. The cyber, tech, IT and pharmaceutical sectors are seeing staff members being trained by the State and the Defence Forces and understand the benefits of recruiting them. There is not enough in the Defence Forces to keep those personnel. These schemes have been used in the past. I encourage the Tánaiste to consider them in advance of the next budget so we can retain staff.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Let me be clear that I do not rule out what he has suggested. I am not in any way naive. While I can point to figures that show marginal improvements in the numbers of Defence Forces personnel, I am also aware we are nowhere near the established numbers we need. That marginal improvement provides a degree of false comfort in some of the specialties where we need to continue to recruit and, crucially, as the Deputy said, retain in the Defence Forces.

As he referenced, there is the new service commitment scheme. I am always open to exploring options to continue to drive recruitment and, particularly, retention. I am open to receiving and considering any proposed initiatives and carefully assessing them against operational requirements. They need to work within broader pay policy. There is a broader issue about pay policy. We often talk about issues at a macro level. Within many organisations in the public service, and the Defence Forces is no different, there are particular pinch points in respect of a group of people or skills. There does not necessarily need to be a contagion effect so we see that spreading across all elements of the public service. How we tease through these issues is complex but important.