Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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I wish to discuss pension abatement for retired nurses who returned to work during Covid and other workers who returned to vaccination centres, wards and community settings. They were highly experienced people. They answered the call and came back to work. They were told their pensions would not be affected. Some went into mental health into the CAMHS clinical liaison support team. They were told they could work up to 19.5 hours and it would not affect their pensions. They brought many years of experience and knowledge with them. Everything was going grand until the Department of Finance intervened sometime late in 2022 and told the HSE this would not be so and the pensions would be abated. The HSE never relayed that to its workers. The workers did not know. They continued on along in the vein they were working. The HSE HR section, especially in HSE south, told the workers everything would be all right. The story is that the Department of Finance and Revenue, the pensions side of it, are looking for money back. Some people are being asked to pay back €2,700, €4,000 or €5,000.

One highly qualified individual who went back into mental health is being asked to pay back €25,000. This is totally and absolutely wrong.

These workers, would you believe it, are still working through the health agencies that supply people to the HSE at an extra cost of about 25%. The work must be done - there are people with mental health problems and people in the hospitals - so the HSE is employing agency workers and it is costing 25% more. There is an embargo on hiring new nurses, which is wrong. I have raised this several times before. These people are so good that they are continuing to work. They are just getting the same amount, but the agencies are charging 25% or 30% on top of this.

I ask the Ministers to look at this. I seem to have an awful lot of these people on my books. They are ringing me every day. They are ringing the office to ask if we can do something about it. I raised it here during the term of the last Government and it is still the same. People are still getting these demands. It is not fair to put them through this at this age of their life, at upwards of 70 years – many of them 71 or 72 years. It is not fair.

I am asking for intervention. As new Ministers and a new Government, I ask them to deal with it and get it out of the way. I ask them to please look at the agency situation and at the case, for example, of a girl who came back to her job after three years of a career break but will not get her job back in CUH in Cork. She has been told there is no job there for her at the present time. She left her job and took a career break, and now she is not being allowed back. The Minister of State must deal with this. It is very serious to treat people like this. They came back and put their own families at risk by going out and working in vaccination centres and wards. They put themselves and their families at risk to do this for the State.

Jennifer Murnane O'Connor (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Deputy Healy-Rae for raising this issue. Before I start, it is important to acknowledge the incredible work performed by all nurses and the key role they play in delivering essential health services to those most in need across the country, not only during Covid but every day of the week.

This Government is committed to supporting and continuing to grow the nursing workforce. We have seen unprecedented growth in the health sector workforce, with record levels of recruitment in the HSE over the past five years. There are over 29,000 more staff working in the health system today than there were at the beginning of 2020, an increase of more than 24%, which includes an additional 10,154 nurses and midwives. According to the most recent OECD report, Ireland has 12.8 practising nurses per 1,000 population, which is the second highest number among the reported EU countries, second only to Finland. In comparison, the UK currently has 8.7 nurses per 1,000 population.

It is true that during Covid many retired nurses returned to work in the HSE to support the national response to the pandemic. Under normal circumstances, when a retired public or civil servant returns to work in the public sector, they can only be reimbursed to the value of their final salary, and their pension is abated accordingly during the period of employment. However, to support retired workers to return to work during the Covid emergency, the then Department of Public Expenditure and Reform approved a temporary waiver of pension abatement. In effect, this meant that those retired workers could receive the full benefit of their salary and their pension. This temporary Covid emergency waiver ended on 31 March 2021, when the abatement policy for the health sector returned to normal, in line with all other sectors. It is the case that some retired persons remained in employment beyond the March 2021 date.

The Department of Health issued a communication to the HSE on 15 January 2021, informing it that the waiver was to cease on 22 January 2021. The HSE issued a communication to its own management teams. This information was also made available to all staff on the HSE website. Unrelated to the Covid waiver, the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform issued further guidance in December 2022 which clarified the rules regarding pension abatement and the methodology for the calculation of same. The HSE, in turn, issued its own memo, 059/2024, in early 2024, outlining the content of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform guidance. As a result of this new guidance, abated employees are currently being assessed by the HSE for compliance.

All retired public servants who are re-employed by any public service body are subject to pension abatement rules. The HSE is obliged to apply the regulations that are in place and to calculate and apply abatement as laid down in Department of Public Expenditure and Reform circular 24/2022 as of 1 January 2023.

I am aware that many retired nurses choose to work in private agency companies and can do so without any impact on their pension. However, the Department and the HSE are committed to reducing the reliance on the use of agency staff and to filling vacancies through direct employment in the first instance in order to build a sustainable workforce for the future. In fact, reaffirming this commitment was a major ask of all representative bodies during the recent WRC negotiations regarding staff.

Ken O'Flynn (Cork North-Central, Independent Ireland Party)
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I thank the Minister of State for coming in under time.

Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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I thank the Minister of State for coming in to answer my question about this. I do not thank her for reading out the section of the reply that claims kudos for the number of extra people employed by the HSE. Clearly, the HSE, the wards and the hospitals are understaffed.

Regarding this particular episode, these people who came back to work did so out of the goodness of their heart when they saw that the country was under pressure. They were told their pensions would not be affected. Then, the Department of Finance came along and said they would be affected. However, when they queried this with the HSE, they thought they were safe to work away, and this is what they did. Now it is ongoing. That is what I ask the Minister of State to sort out. It is not fair on these people.

I take these people’s word because they worked for the HSE and the country, most of them for more than 40 years. There was never a question of them relenting in or not complying with their duties. This is what they are saying to me. They were told by HSE south that they were safe and to work away. After I highlighted it here in the Dáil, some of them stopped working and went to agencies to do the same work. I believe these people. I ask the Minister of State to look at what happened because clearly the HSE HR told them they were safe to stay working, and that is what they did. They did not let the people down. Some of these people were dealing one to one with patients who maybe would have committed suicide or done a lot worse. They felt an onus on themselves to keep working. When they got the nod from the HSE that they were safe and they would be sorted out with the Department of Finance, that is what they did. I want the Minister of State to sort this out and take no more tax or extra money out of their pensions.

Jennifer Murnane O'Connor (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I can see the Deputy’s passion, and I do understand. It is important to reiterate our appreciation for the work carried out by all our healthcare workers throughout the pandemic, including those individuals who returned from retirement to help their colleagues and the public when they needed it most. I understand that.

The temporary waiver of pension abatement was introduced at a time of great need. The normal rules of pension abatement are that waivers will only be granted in exceptional circumstances, for a limited period of time. In this case, they ceased to operate from March 2021. I know I have already said that to the Deputy.

When new circulars are introduced, the HSE national pension payments team is mandated to apply the regulations in force regarding the abatement, specifically the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform circular 24/2022 as of 1 January 2023. The HSE is obliged to calculate and apply abatement as laid down in the circular. It is important to note the HSE is only reviewing compliance from this date on, and not for the duration of the temporary Covid waiver.

The Government is committed to supporting the ongoing recruitment and growth of our health service workforce.

Reliance on retired workers and exemptions from the principle of pension abatement is not a durable solution or one that should be relied on long term. There has been an unprecedented level of investment by this Government in the health service workforce in recent years with over 29,000 more staff working in our health service today than at the beginning of 2020. Funding provided in 2024 and 2025 will allow the HSE to recruit an additional 7,000 staff in 2025, in addition to replacing department staff.

The Government is also committed to enhancing the supply of new graduates by increasing training places. Since 2014, first year nursing places in Irish higher education institutions have grown by 50%. An additional 122 nursing and midwifery places were provided in Northern Ireland in 2023 and a further 78 additional nursing places were provided in 2024. I thank the Deputy for bringing up this issue and for highlighting it and I will go back again to the Department on it.