Jen Cummins (Dublin South Central, Social Democrats)
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I am sharing time with Deputy Paul Murphy.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Ladies first, is it, Deputy Cummins?

Jen Cummins (Dublin South Central, Social Democrats)
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No, Deputy Murphy will go first.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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I am sure the Minister of State has probably been inundated as I have - probably more so than me - with emails from worried leaving cert students, parents and teachers about the unfair disadvantage that this year's students will be put at due to the Government's grade deflation proposals. This is not just a question of next year or the year after. It is something that will have an impact on young people for the rest of their lives. An email from one worried parent put the problem very well. It stated that the students between 2020 and 2024 had a massive advantage over any other leaving cert students they competed against. According to the email, in 2024, average grade inflation was 7.5% while in 2025 it will be lowered to 5.5% and, therefore, the class of 2025 will get approximately 15 or 16 points fewer than last year's class. The email stated that there was an unprecedented number of CAO applicants from previous years - one in four and that, since 25% of this year's CAO applicants would have a huge advantage over the 75% of leaving cert students sitting the exams in June 2025, students from this year would miss out on places they should be offered if the Department did not address this urgently.

I cannot understand how the Minister of State is going to stand over this unfairness, how he cannot see the problem that is here or the many potential solutions that are being suggested that will not unfairly disadvantage anyone. It is obviously unfair for this year's students to be marked harder than last year's but it is also unfair if students from previous years, who were told they got a certain number of points, were to have those points reduced, especially when they were never warned this could happen. I propose a more radical solution, which is the same radical solution we have been proposing since the start of the Covid crisis, namely, that there would be open access to university for all. On the radio last week, the Minister said that 80% to 90% of students get their top choice. Would it be so onerous to invest so that all of them get it?

Jen Cummins (Dublin South Central, Social Democrats)
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Like Deputy Murphy and I am sure many others, we have seen numerous emails coming in from parents worried about how this is going to affect their children. In 2021, 1,300 students received a maximum of 625 CAO points, which I am sure everybody knows is an extremely difficult thing to do. That was more than double the number in 2020 and nearly six times the figures from 2019. Now we are in a situation where we have students who are achieving the top points. With the maximum points reached and only a certain number of course places, there is nowhere for them to go, so it ends up in a lottery. I am concerned about those students who are on the HEAR and DARE programmes. If grades are being inflated and these students are not reaching the level they could reach - not because of their ability, but due to the inflation - are they at a bit of a disadvantage? I am concerned as to how all of this has affected those students over the past number of years. When we are raising the bar so high, it is difficult for everybody to get there.

For students from educationally disadvantaged backgrounds and those with educational needs, for example, dyslexia and dyscalculia, those programmes are vital to them reaching their points. Unfortunately, our education system only really allows for people to learn in a particular way when it comes to the leaving cert. Sometimes, those students who can learn in a particular way will do excellently and for others it does not really work for how their learning styles and knowledge base can be examined. We are getting numerous emails from parents regarding this issue and we are looking, like Deputy Murphy, for fair assessments, expanded college places and at ways of assessing our students in a more equitable way.

Michael Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputies for the question. It gives me an opportunity to outline the issue from the side of the Department. It is under the remit of the Minister, Deputy McEntee in this regard.

I am conscious that the leaving certificate can be a very stressful time for students and their families. This includes the stress of the examinations themselves and the decisions for students in determining their pathways into work or continued education. Following the implementation of calculated grades in 2020 and the dual approach of examinations and accredited grades in 2021, two types of intervention have been implemented in recent years. These are the adjustments to examination and assessments arrangements and a post-marking adjustment to outcomes. The first of these - the adjustments to assessment arrangements - assisted students by leaving intact the familiar overall structure of the examinations while incorporating additional choice for students.

In some cases, the adjustment measures provide more time for tuition, for example, by reducing preparation work for practical examinations. The adjustments to the assessment arrangements have been applied in recent years and will continue to apply in the 2025 leaving certificate year. The second intervention, the post-mapping adjustments, has ensured the results in the aggregate have remained the same as an average since 2021. Aggregated grades rose significantly in 2020 by 4.4 percentage points and by a further 2.6 percentage points in 2021.

It is widely recognised we must return towards pre-pandemic levels. In April 2024, it was announced by the then Minister for Education, Deputy Foley, that this would be done gradually in line with the commitment that there would be no cliff edge in overall results. In 2025, the State Examinations Commission, SEC, will again apply a post-marking adjustment after all markings are completed. This will bring results in the aggregate to the point broadly midway between 2020 and 2021 levels, resulting in the aggregate for 2025 being expected to be above the 2019 levels by at least 5.5 percentage points on average. This return will be done in a gradual way to minimise the impact on students so far as is possible.

The CAO system is distinct from operations and accreditations of the leaving certificate by the State Examinations Commission and access to higher education is a matter for the Department for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science. My Department is working closely with the Department for further and higher education, which has emphasised it is strongly committed to supporting students, as evidenced in the creation of additional places in several high-demand courses in recent years. These additional places have been created in medicine, nursing, pharmacy and the therapy disciplines, among others. I have been advised that further additionalities in place for 2025 include a new programme in dentistry.

The Department has also been advised the proportion of higher education entrants who complete their leaving certificate the previous year is typically approximately 13%. There currently are no indications of a significant variation this year in the proportion of students applying with pre-2025 leaving certificate results when compared to previous years.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Does the Minister of State accept there is an unfairness here? There are students this year who, with a given set of results, will not achieve a college place they would have achieved last year or the year before or whatever. There is a fundamental unfairness here. I accept that within this artificial scarcity - an effectively fake market being created for the points system - it is difficult to have solutions that do not unfairly disadvantage someone but that entirely gets to the point that the problem is a lack of investment in our third level system. We have a much lower percentage of GDP in third level education than other EU countries and then there is this artificial scarcity.

The points system has created a lucrative industry of grinds and private schools, systematically enshrining inequality in our education. The answer is to have open access to university and let everyone into university, secondary school and primary school.

Jen Cummins (Dublin South Central, Social Democrats)
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I thank the Minister of State for acknowledging the huge pressure students are under. Having worked in education for many years and having my own children go through the leaving certificate, it is a time of huge pressure not only for the student but also for everyone around him or her. It is quite a difficult situation. At what point will we be rid of this system? When will what was put in place during the pandemic period be over?

I am a little concerned because in the previous proceedings, we talked about the need for broadening the base to recruit for special education schools, which are going to need more occupational therapists, speech and language therapists and physiotherapists. These are at the higher end of the points scale. When are we going to broaden it out for there to be enough spaces on these courses? As the space in the course dictates the amount of points, they are all tied in together.

As I did not hear it in the Minister of State's response, I will return to the issue of HEAR and DARE. These are vital and those students must fight even harder to get to the points in the way that they can. We really need to be equitable to those students.

Michael Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputies and I understand their concerns. There are several issues here. Regarding therapies, there are additional places being provided in higher education for therapies and that is a commitment in the programme for Government. It is also an acknowledgement of the huge shortage out there within the State and I stated this in my previous reply.

In any discussions we have regarding the leaving certificate, we must also acknowledge the State Examinations Commission has done an excellent job. Over the decades and in respect of how it has been run by the State, the leaving certificate has stood the test of time in any challenges it has faced. Yes, there are issues regarding how we will get back to where we were pre-pandemic. It is one of the overhanging issues. There is a gradual reduction to get back to where we were pre-pandemic. It is important we ensure everyone is catered for. The Deputy will accept many people have benefited from the HEAR and DARE programmes and have excelled in their field once they went on to third level education. We all will have encountered families that approached us to make sure they could get on those programmes. It is important that we reflect on that and ensure it is taken into account as well with regard to how we gradually get back to a pre-pandemic level in the education system.

It is also important we stand up for the leaving certificate. Yes, there were significant challenges, particularly in the leaving certificate, and there have been significant challenges in recent years because many students did not sit the junior certificate because of the way we had to deal with the pandemic. It is important that we do. I take the points raised but I believe we are working correctly and the information we have been given is correct in respect of gradually getting back to the pre-pandemic level of the leaving certificate.